ninja gear

[Ryko]

You fkn cheater, you has a something or other Haste advantage for 2 hours and still only were ahead by like 20 damage a fight not even sure that WHM threw a haste my way the entire time.

<_<

What you need are a pair of dusk gloves +1 ^^

Yeah, amongst other things <_< 2 behe hides in my locker.

[Brennon]

Ok, perhaps not techinally wrong, since it is virtually impossible to know and account for all possible exp settings.

I know this though, i've partied with many ridill warriors, and other monks with along with ridill warriors, and they damage is very very comparable. Sometimes the mnks are on top, sometimes the warriors are.

How about this. Ridill WAR would always be ontop if we didnt have to tank every EXP mob, cast Utsusemi time and time again in order to keep MP up, and inturn lose a SHITLOAD of DoT. (Casting Ustusemi Ichi almost lets you swing 3 rounds of attacks on a hasted, marched MNK) Don't get me started on being interrupted. Even Ni is a loss in DoT...and when you're losing a fight by 150DMG, thats it right there.

The next time a mage lets me be an MP dump like every MNK/WAR out there in the server...is the day every WAR will outDD every MNK. (I do it anyway.)

Yeah, mnk/nin never has to cast ni, or god forbid, ichi

[Lordwafik]

I can't think of a meripo camp that has VT/IT charmable mobs. It seems though that a BST and an IT pet would rape other jobs damage though, for 30 mins out of 120 if you could keep the pet alive heh.

-Mamool staging point has T Sea Puks,
-Mount Zhaylom has the biggest zoo of charmable mobs you can bring, but good ol' level design makes sure Tiamat v 2.0 doesnt happen, all the good pets are outside the gates of halvung and are quite a walk to cerb/troll area. However you'll find DC-T Flies/Pugils/Crawlers/Crabs, and DC-EM Leeches to the northen beaches.
-Caedvera has flies/Sheep
-Arrapago has DC-T crabs, and T-VT krakens, however are there exp spots here? I saw nothing possible to exp on without having 1000 crabs or a whole herd of undead on you.

But that thing about cerberus, /tear. Im pretty sure BST could have done a BST/SMN allience on him, if the pets could only walk back, oh wells.

[Lockecole]

Ok, perhaps not techinally wrong, since it is virtually impossible to know and account for all possible exp settings.

I know this though, i've partied with many ridill warriors, and other monks with along with ridill warriors, and they damage is very very comparable. Sometimes the mnks are on top, sometimes the warriors are.

How about this. Ridill WAR would always be ontop if we didnt have to tank every EXP mob, cast Utsusemi time and time again in order to keep MP up, and inturn lose a SHITLOAD of DoT. (Casting Ustusemi Ichi almost lets you swing 3 rounds of attacks on a hasted, marched MNK) Don't get me started on being interrupted. Even Ni is a loss in DoT...and when you're losing a fight by 150DMG, thats it right there.

The next time a mage lets me be an MP dump like every MNK/WAR out there in the server...is the day every WAR will outDD every MNK. (I do it anyway.)

Yeah, mnk/nin never has to cast ni, or god forbid, ichi

I clearly stated this in the instances in which MNKs go /WAR, not /NIN, which most MNKs do. Its hard for MNK/WAR to outparse a good Ridill WAR, its nearly impossible for a MNK/NIN to.

Obviously if both go /NIN you're on equal grounds, but even so in a situation where you have MNK/NIN, WAR/NIN, WAR/NIN in an EXP PT, guess whos tanking? Go to Bhaf Thickets and you're asking for some dead RDMs/WHMs/BRDs if the WARs dont provoke mobs off of casters. Not to mention in the claim game, even if someone casts on a mob now, if they dont have equal or higher hate then your own, you still keep the mob. Also a big reason to bring voke to those new camps.

[Brennon]

Ok, perhaps not techinally wrong, since it is virtually impossible to know and account for all possible exp settings.

I know this though, i've partied with many ridill warriors, and other monks with along with ridill warriors, and they damage is very very comparable. Sometimes the mnks are on top, sometimes the warriors are.

How about this. Ridill WAR would always be ontop if we didnt have to tank every EXP mob, cast Utsusemi time and time again in order to keep MP up, and inturn lose a SHITLOAD of DoT. (Casting Ustusemi Ichi almost lets you swing 3 rounds of attacks on a hasted, marched MNK) Don't get me started on being interrupted. Even Ni is a loss in DoT...and when you're losing a fight by 150DMG, thats it right there.

The next time a mage lets me be an MP dump like every MNK/WAR out there in the server...is the day every WAR will outDD every MNK. (I do it anyway.)

Yeah, mnk/nin never has to cast ni, or god forbid, ichi

I clearly stated this in the instances in which MNKs go /WAR, not /NIN, which most MNKs do. Its hard for MNK/WAR to outparse a good Ridill WAR, its nearly impossible for a MNK/NIN to.

Obviously if both go /NIN you're on equal grounds, but even so in a situation where you have MNK/NIN, WAR/NIN, WAR/NIN in an EXP PT, guess whos tanking? Go to Bhaf Thickets and you're asking for some dead RDMs/WHMs/BRDs if the WARs dont provoke mobs off of casters. Not to mention in the claim game, even if someone casts on a mob now, if they dont have equal or higher hate then your own, you still keep the mob. Also a big reason to bring voke to those new camps.

Clearly you've never partied with a very strong mnk in such a situation.

ninjaedit, sorry: In any case, even if I go mnk/war as I've tried before... i'm not talking about going full on, all out damage. That's a good way to get killed. But if we're going to be comparing jobs, you have to consider the whole package. As mnk/war, i have to hold back some, so as not to die. As mnk/nin, i have alot more freedom to go all out without constantly risking a good face bashing. Monk/war is still a good deal more damage than mnk/nin, and even holding back, i'm matching the war's damage. Both jobs have strengths and weaknesses, which should all be taken into consideration when comparing the jobs. war's have piss poor evasion (a fact which is not helped when much of their good gear has even more -evasion). Monks have a faster attack speed, as well as counter. It all evens out very nicely. I've never said mnk > war. But too often mnk is seen as belonging in KRT for good damage only, and that simply isn't the case.


Ideally, in such a setting mnk will sub nin, sacrificing some damage for the sake of pt effeciency, just as a warrior takes the bit of extra time to cast shadows for the sake of pt effeciency. (do you really need to cast ichi? with haste + march, i'd think your ni timer would be short enough that you wouldn't need ichi. at least, i almost never need ichi) But the claim that was brought up, which I am contesting... is that mnk is not *capable* of matching a ridill war/nin. It's simply untrue.

[Lockecole]

Ideally, in such a setting mnk will sub nin, sacrificing some damage for the sake of pt effeciency, just as a warrior takes the bit of extra time to cast shadows for the sake of pt effeciency.

Not really a fair comparison. The point is Im forced to cast Ichi because I TANK the mob. In a fast paced PT like in Bhaf, you dont always kill things slow enough to even have Ni up again after you casted it. (I have close to a 22sec Ni when March/Haste/Gear is involved) Factor things in like every Mamool have a devastating 4-5hit TP move, Fang Rush from Juriks, and you're talking either a dead WAR or a WAR that has to cast Ichi to stay alive and keep the PTs MP up. None of this has to be done by a MNK, because MNKs dont have to voke when they're MNK/NIN. You cant compare WAR and MNK damage because 75% of the time its the WAR who has hate, short of a WS right off the bat by the MNK.

I think we can agree Ive clearly never EXPed with a MNK in a fully upgraded Relic, and you've clearly never EXPed with my WAR. Care for a server hop anyone?

[Brennon]

Not really a fair comparison. The point is Im forced to cast Ichi because I TANK the mob. In a fast paced PT like in Bhaf, you dont always kill things slow enough to even have Ni up again after you casted it. (I have close to a 22sec Ni when March/Haste/Gear is involved) Factor things in like every Mamool have a devastating 4-5hit TP move, Fang Rush from Juriks, and you're talking either a dead WAR or a WAR that has to cast Ichi to stay alive and keep the PTs MP up. None of this has to be done by a MNK, because MNKs dont have to voke when they're MNK/NIN. You cant compare WAR and MNK damage because 75% of the time its the WAR who has hate, short of a WS right off the bat by the MNK.

I think we can agree Ive clearly never EXPed with a MNK in a fully upgraded Relic, and you've clearly never EXPed with my WAR. Care for a server hop anyone?

1) I pull/keep hate just as much as the warriors, even if they do provoke.

2) Relic gives me *somewhat* more of an advantage over other monks, not a huge one. Aurik doesn't have relic knuckles, in fact he doesn't have a number of nice gears that I have (shura togi, byakko's haidate, to name some), but i'd be willing to bet that he'd keep up damage wise just about as well. (I'll admit straight up that he's a better player than I am, even though he doesn't have some of the more "uber" gear that I have.)

3) I've never partied with you, but i'm willing to bet i've partied with plenty of warriors with the same gear you have. Playstyles do vary of course...

Anyway its 2am and I'm tired and i get the feeling that nothing short of actually partying with a really top notch mnk will convince you anyway, which is a shame because it doesn't seem like you'd be willing to give them the chance. Oh well.

[Raivyn]

Locke, sounds like you need to pt with more wars Spread that hate out.

[Dezzimal]

Job vs. Job debates in 10 easy steps (odd/even steps are from the opposite side):

1. "X outparses Y"
2. "No it doesn't."
3. "Yes it does!"
4. "Ok maybe if Y is a gimp"
5. "No way, I totally outparsed this Y on my X (links parse). Y had really, really good equipment"
6. "He wasn't very good at his job then"
7. "My friend's mother's sister totally partied with the best X and Y on (server) and X totally won in overall damage"
8. "Well my brother's friend's uncle partied with the best X and Y on (server) and Y raped face."
9. "X was gimped, he doesn't have Z"
10. (wailing and gnashing of teeth)

[Brennon]

Job vs. Job debates in 10 easy steps (odd/even steps are from the opposite side):

1. "X outparses Y"
2. "No it doesn't."
3. "Yes it does!"
4. "Ok maybe if Y is a gimp"
5. "No way, I totally outparsed this Y on my X (links parse). Y had really, really good equipment"
6. "He wasn't very good at his job then"
7. "My friend's mother's sister totally partied with the best X and Y on (server) and X totally won in overall damage"
8. "Well my brother's friend's uncle partied with the best X and Y on (server) and Y raped face."
9. "X was gimped, he doesn't have Z"
10. (wailing and gnashing of teeth)

I'd just like to point out that i never said better or worse. I say different, yet equal, depending on the players.

[Raineer]

Job vs. Job debates in 10 easy steps (odd/even steps are from the opposite side):

1. "X outparses Y"
2. "No it doesn't."
3. "Yes it does!"
4. "Ok maybe if Y is a gimp"
5. "No way, I totally outparsed this Y on my X (links parse). Y had really, really good equipment"
6. "He wasn't very good at his job then"
7. "My friend's mother's sister totally partied with the best X and Y on (server) and X totally won in overall damage"
8. "Well my brother's friend's uncle partied with the best X and Y on (server) and Y raped face."
9. "X was gimped, he doesn't have Z"
10. (wailing and gnashing of teeth)

I'd just like to point out that i never said better or worse. I say different, yet equal, depending on the players.

You never said you were better yet you claim there's essentially no one anywhere that can hold hate off you.

[Dezzimal]

Job vs. Job debates in 10 easy steps (odd/even steps are from the opposite side):

1. "X outparses Y"
2. "No it doesn't."
3. "Yes it does!"
4. "Ok maybe if Y is a gimp"
5. "No way, I totally outparsed this Y on my X (links parse). Y had really, really good equipment"
6. "He wasn't very good at his job then"
7. "My friend's mother's sister totally partied with the best X and Y on (server) and X totally won in overall damage"
8. "Well my brother's friend's uncle partied with the best X and Y on (server) and Y raped face."
9. "X was gimped, he doesn't have Z"
10. (wailing and gnashing of teeth)

I'd just like to point out that i never said better or worse. I say different, yet equal, depending on the players.

only when referring to war vs. mnk correct? Because I know my NIN doesn't stand a chance at keeping up with a ridill warrior unless he is severely gimped or I decide to let him tank.

@ poster above me: I regularly party with a mnk/nin who can pull hate off me in 2 good rounds of attacks (few crits + a kick attack). No spahari (spelling?) either just normal endgame monk gear + maxed merits.

[aurik]

It's true, though.

I pull hate as mnk/nin in a merit situation, regardless of who else is in party, and I'm sure it's only worse with Spharai. I don't remember the last time this wasn't true...maybe if we set up a roaming merit party on mountain clots or something

Remember, higher enmity doesn't always mean superior DD. Nobody's going to argue that DRK damage is leet sause, yet they have no problems pulling hate and dying.

[Brennon]

You never said you were better yet you claim there's essentially no one anywhere that can hold hate off you.

Sorry, I overstated my point then. I don't mean to say I take and hold hate in a war/nin vs mnk/nin situation, no matter what. I mean to say that I take and hold hate as much as the warriors do. In a WS burn style pt, when each fight is maybe 30 seconds long, who has hate depends on who uses what WS and when, more than anything else. So yeah, I do my fair share of tanking.

[Lockecole]

1) I pull/keep hate just as much as the warriors, even if they do provoke.

I kinda stopped reading there. (ok I didnt, but it kinda made everything else irrelevant.) If that's happening, your WARs aren't top-notch. Period.

2) Relic gives me *somewhat* more of an advantage over other monks, not a huge one. Aurik doesn't have relic knuckles, in fact he doesn't have a number of nice gears that I have (shura togi, byakko's haidate, to name some), but i'd be willing to bet that he'd keep up damage wise just about as well. (I'll admit straight up that he's a better player than I am, even though he doesn't have some of the more "uber" gear that I have

Again, you say Aurik is good, and knows what hes doing and may be able to keep up with you, (and from everything he's said across these forums I agree) but gear speaks for itself. Ive partied with MNKs with full H2H merits 5/5STR, PCC, Faith Torques, Byakkos, Shura Togis, all of that stuff that he doesnt have, and still outparsed them. Im not talking about random WARs, random MNKs, random anything, Im talking about key players in the Siren community, many of which are either in high ranking JP shells or my own, and nothing changes it. If anyone you're partying with is from a pickup PT, or doesnt have KEY merits to support their exact playstyle, (MNKs and WARs Ive EXPed with have 200+ merits, I have about 250 myself) then you're comparing yourself to the wrong people.

I'm not saying one is necessarily better then the other, MNK obviously has its aspects in which it totally blows WAR away...but I just dont believe you're partying with the right people, if you're coming to some of the conclusions you are.

[Rewind_levi]

Job vs. Job debates in 10 easy steps (odd/even steps are from the opposite side):

1. "X outparses Y"
2. "No it doesn't."
3. "Yes it does!"
4. "Ok maybe if Y is a gimp"
5. "No way, I totally outparsed this Y on my X (links parse). Y had really, really good equipment"
6. "He wasn't very good at his job then"
7. "My friend's mother's sister totally partied with the best X and Y on (server) and X totally won in overall damage"
8. "Well my brother's friend's uncle partied with the best X and Y on (server) and Y raped face."
9. "X was gimped, he doesn't have Z"
10. (wailing and gnashing of teeth)

You forgot, 11. Well Y must be using sushi, because Meat is 1337sauce

[Brennon]

1) I pull/keep hate just as much as the warriors, even if they do provoke.

I kinda stopped reading there. (ok I didnt, but it kinda made everything else irrelevant.) If that's happening, your WARs aren't top-notch. Period.

Read where I clarified this above.

2) Relic gives me *somewhat* more of an advantage over other monks, not a huge one. Aurik doesn't have relic knuckles, in fact he doesn't have a number of nice gears that I have (shura togi, byakko's haidate, to name some), but i'd be willing to bet that he'd keep up damage wise just about as well. (I'll admit straight up that he's a better player than I am, even though he doesn't have some of the more "uber" gear that I have

Again, you say Aurik is good, and knows what hes doing and may be able to keep up with you, (and from everything he's said across these forums I agree) but gear speaks for itself. Ive partied with MNKs with full H2H merits 5/5STR, PCC, Faith Torques, Byakkos, Shura Togis, all of that stuff that he doesnt have, and still outparsed them. Im not talking about random WARs, random MNKs, random anything, Im talking about key players in the Siren community, many of which are either in high ranking JP shells or my own, and nothing changes it. If anyone you're partying with is from a pickup PT, or doesnt have KEY merits to support their exact playstyle, (MNKs and WARs Ive EXPed with have 200+ merits, I have about 250 myself) then you're comparing yourself to the wrong people.

I'm not saying one is necessarily better then the other, MNK obviously has its aspects in which it totally blows WAR away...but I just dont believe you're partying with the right people, if you're coming to some of the conclusions you are.

(brenner? lol)

I'm fairly confident that is not the case.

[Xsaintx-Siren]

Locke, sounds like you need to pt with more wars Spread that hate out.

locke destroys all

[aurik]

The point of the whole discussion about who has hate is to say, a good mnk/nin will recast utsusemi a lot. It's not only wars who have to sacrifice their raw dmg for the health of the party. Everyone does, to some extent, except epenis ninjas who flat out refuse to voke because it interrupts their attack cycle

[Ryko]

(brenner? lol)

I'd hit it