Fafnir sucks

[Andrinne]

The only point to LInkin's post 5 pages after the debate, Ryko was just so he could say this:

Heck my ls killed it last night

Which, after watching the last 9 percent (no wait 12 percent... um wasn't it just 8 percent?) portion of the fight for 45 minutes, plus their pld/DRK tank... I'm not so sure it was something to exactly be proud of.

[Krandor]

The only point to LInkin's post 5 pages after the debate, Ryko was just so he could say this:

Heck my ls killed it last night

Which, after watching the last 9 percent (no wait 12 percent... um wasn't it just 8 percent?) portion of the fight for 45 minutes, plus their pld/DRK tank... I'm not so sure it was something to exactly be proud of.

Wait what?

[Linkinfate]

PLD/drk worked well >_> and yeah I did only read like, the first 5 pages.

Don't you realize how much hate pld can get with stun? +enmity gear and curing? Yes you heard that right.

It's quite apparent when rdm/drks, and blms get owned and pulled in for a few stuns, plus any extra curing.. nuking.

[aurik]

PLD/drk worked well >_> and yeah I did only read like, the first 5 pages.

Don't you realize how much hate pld can get with stun? +enmity gear and curing? Yes you heard that right.

It's quite apparent when rdm/drks, and blms get owned and pulled in for a few stuns, plus any extra curing.. nuking.

Your rdm/drks need more enmity- gear. Or your tanks suck at keeping hate.

[Anyway]

Link, your sig takes up half the page.

[Xavier]

if you somehow had 3 pld/drks that were in perfect harmony timing their stun into flash every few seconds, never overlapping, either keeping tiamat stunned or blind, maybe it'd work lol....

it would result in massive hate for the tank assuming they never really got hit since they'd have two abilities that get hate on a much lower recast time than voke.

still though, be hard to get 3 people who would perfectly able to time their stun and flash with each other.

[Krandor]

I've heard the idea but it seems like a total waste of effort when NIN/WAR, NIN/DRK and PLD/NIN (or PLD/WAR, but ugh @ that for Tiamat) can get the job done just as well

[chiz]

Which, after watching the last 9 percent (no wait 12 percent... um wasn't it just 8 percent?) portion of the fight for 45 minutes, plus their pld/DRK tank... I'm not so sure it was something to exactly be proud of.

Sorry it was such a sloppy kill, I'll be sure to bug you for your 4 hour Tiamat Kill guide next time I see ya.

Anyways, my intent is never to main tank as PLD/DRK, its just a safety valve if you will. As most of you know, going into a Grand Wyrm fight with less than 3 tanks in the alliance is generally a bad idea. Those who know me on Fairy, know I prefer to tank with NIN over PLD if NIN can get the job done.

The idea is to let the 2 NIN tank, with me grabbing hate (at will) in the event 1) a NIN is roar'd 2) a NIN is killed. The same effect can be achieved with a PLD/WAR or PLD/NIN, however, having both Stun and Flash available to help NINs when Utsu is down is much more useful than having Provoke or Utsusemi ready. /DRK also offers more hate grabbing /ja than /WAR or /NIN.

I actually try to stun/flash/cure with 0 Enmity until I want to grab hate since CoP wyrms tend to hit PLD pretty hard, especially without Defender or Utsusemi. Randomly stun'ing Blasts, spells, Wings and the intidimidation procs are just a nice perk I guess.

Chiz

[chilicheese]

Chiz: the difference maker

[chiz]

Chiz: the difference maker

If one person walks away with the notion PLD/DRK is a suitable tank for CoP wyrms, I made a difference.

[Ryko]

Let it not seem like I'm just trying to bust your chops dude since trial and error is still a perfectly valid method of experimentation, but to be honest though I don't know how much of a safety valve you can consider it when your backup is eating 525 damage crits when tiamat's MS is up with abosolutely 0 way to make sure the thing doesnt connect to you at all. Furthermore if a tank dies or gets roared, it clears their hate completely, if you just subbed NIN and did what you could to pull hate then it's not like you wouldnt be in third place on the hate list anyway, with a guaranteed way to mitigate damage. You'd almost be better served capping out your WAR (which you're doing atm) and subbing WHM for that purpose since defender would at least push that crit cap down a little bit and if you're just tertiary you'd have plenty of time to 1) throw stoneskin up and 2) Bust off a DS curagaII for instant hate in case you need to grab it immediately.

[chiz]

Let it not seem like I'm just trying to bust your chops dude since trial and error is still a perfectly valid method of experimentation

Trial and error? Nah its a proven winner. Not the first time I've used PLD/DRK on CoP Wyrm, and certainly not the last.

but to be honest though I don't know how much of a safety valve you can consider it when your backup is eating 525 damage crits when tiamat's MS is up with abosolutely 0 way to make sure the thing doesnt connect to you at all.

As opposed to the 800-900 1-shot crits to a support job. Sure, grabbing hate during MS isn't ideal as PLD/DRK, but its really not much different than PLD/WAR. I have the same defensive tools I use to help NINs through the duration of the fight, stun and flash, although its kind of a double-edged sword since hate will be on me longer.

Furthermore if a tank dies or gets roared, it clears their hate completely, if you just subbed NIN and did what you could to pull hate then it's not like you wouldnt be in third place on the hate list anyway,

That's absolutely not true. Its easy for a mage to be higher in the hate queue than a 3rd tank, especially if tanks are constantly dying or being roared. Easier to see on Jorm than on Tiamat. When you get double roared or even that occasionaly triple roar, a PLD/DRK can get hate back within 1 action/spell cycle, a PLD/NIN cannot (without using Invincible).

with a guaranteed way to mitigate damage. You'd almost be better served capping out your WAR (which you're doing atm) and subbing WHM for that purpose since defender would at least push that crit cap down a little bit and if you're just tertiary you'd have plenty of time to 1) throw stoneskin up and 2) Bust off a DS curagaII for instant hate in case you need to grab it immediately.

/WAR has no guaranteed way to mitigate damage. Sure defender helps some, but I prefer VIT over DEF when trying to lower crit or WS damage. WAR/WHM? I guess that's a possibility, but it can't be compared to PLD/DRK in terms of hate gaining, survivability and overall usefulness over the course of the fight. Plus my WHM has been Lv4 for about 2 years now. :/

Chiz

[Ryko]

That's nice and all, but I made no reference to PLD/WAR at all, I already know it's practically worthless on tia and jorm (ouryu doesnt hit hard so a /WAR build is perfectly viable, and vrtra is typically kited so who cares there really) >_>

[chiz]

That's nice and all, but I made no reference to PLD/WAR at all, I already know it's practically worthless on a wyrm >_>

So how is WAR/WHM a viable solution? PLD/WAR with 1/3rd the MP, no flash, and a weak 100 dmg stoneskin?

[Ryko]

Voke, an instant hate grab, and easily more damage mitigation (for both you and the other tanks through the use of curative spells that will go off since it is being used as a last resort, lowering the curing workload of your healers and as a result lowering their hate while simultaneously boosting yours, moreso ensuring that you are there in third place on the hate list with the potential to be first) through defender and supportive spell than anything a PLD/DRK has to offer? The only thing the PLD/DRK has over the WAR/WHM in that situation is auto-refresh, and if you wanted it that badly you could just go PLD/WHM and do the exact same thing with flash instead of voke.

[Xavier]

That's nice and all, but I made no reference to PLD/WAR at all, I already know it's practically worthless on a wyrm >_>

So how is WAR/WHM a viable solution? PLD/WAR with 1/3rd the MP, no flash, and a weak 100 dmg stoneskin?

People use it quite often. Its for the curaga, and it works pretty well.

I like nin/drk the most though for Tiamat/Jorm.

[Arvin]

That's nice and all, but I made no reference to PLD/WAR at all, I already know it's practically worthless on a wyrm >_>

So how is WAR/WHM a viable solution? PLD/WAR with 1/3rd the MP, no flash, and a weak 100 dmg stoneskin?

People use it quite often. Its for the curaga, and it works pretty well.

I like nin/drk the most though for Tiamat/Jorm.

I usually feel more comfortable during wyrms when we have a nin/drk tanking them, simply because I like to SA a lot of weaponskills and my shellmate tanking on that set up would time his stun right before my WS lands so I can quickly run to the front. It helps keep tail attacks minimal.

[Koyangi]

That's nice and all, but I made no reference to PLD/WAR at all, I already know it's practically worthless on a wyrm >_>

So how is WAR/WHM a viable solution? PLD/WAR with 1/3rd the MP, no flash, and a weak 100 dmg stoneskin?

Theres a JP taru on my server who did fafhogg with war/whm for a very long time, full keonig etc, now he does tiamat/fafhogg as pld/nin, in both cases he is very skilled at what he does

[chiz]

Voke, an instant hate grab, and easily more damage mitigation (for both you and the other tanks through the use of curative spells that will go off since it is being used as a last resort, lowering the curing workload of your healers and as a result lowering their hate while simultaneously boosting yours) through defender and supportive spell than anything a PLD/DRK has to offer? The only thing the PLD/DRK has over the WAR/WHM in that situation is auto-refresh, and if you wanted it that badly you could just go PLD/WHM and do the exact same thing with flash instead of voke.

So Stun and Flash aren't instant hate-grabbers anymore? Stun is proactive damage mitigation, far superior to defensive damage mitigation like healing. PLD/DRK is far superior to WAR/WHM in that category as well. +7 MP with whatever you get back off Ethereal means sustained Cure III spam on tanks while a wyrm is in flight, y'know, the time mages actually build up hate.

That last portion basically summarizes to: PLD/WHM gets auto-regen, SJ MDB, and ds curaga2 once very 10 mins vs. PLD/DRK which gets Stun and Last Resort/WeaponBash/SoulEater. I'll take the frequency and usefulness of Stun over any of the benefits /WHM offers, but again, my WHM is Lv4 so idk.

[chiz]

That's nice and all, but I made no reference to PLD/WAR at all, I already know it's practically worthless on a wyrm >_>

So how is WAR/WHM a viable solution? PLD/WAR with 1/3rd the MP, no flash, and a weak 100 dmg stoneskin?

People use it quite often. Its for the curaga, and it works pretty well.

I like nin/drk the most though for Tiamat/Jorm.

Ya i've heard of it as well and I'm sure it works just fine.

I also prefer nin/drk or nin/war as main tanks for Tia/Jorm, but again, as I stated in my first post, my intention isn't to main tank. I've used nin/drk and /war which is fine until you get roared and need to get hate back quickly.

I just find it much easier to control the amount of hate I have as PLD while still being able to heal myself and others until I actually need to grab hate. Again, the random mitigation of damage through use of Stun and intimidation procs are just a bonus I guess.