Fafnir sucks

[Xavier]

That's nice and all, but I made no reference to PLD/WAR at all, I already know it's practically worthless on a wyrm >_>

So how is WAR/WHM a viable solution? PLD/WAR with 1/3rd the MP, no flash, and a weak 100 dmg stoneskin?

People use it quite often. Its for the curaga, and it works pretty well.

I like nin/drk the most though for Tiamat/Jorm.

I usually feel more comfortable during wyrms when we have a nin/drk tanking them, simply because I like to SA a lot of weaponskills and my shellmate tanking on that set up would time his stun right before my WS lands so I can quickly run to the front. It helps keep tail attacks minimal.

Time to derail this shit.

DRK/THF is the best sneak attacker because they can stun their own spike flail after their WS.

Time to hit up my sticky.

[Ryko]

So Stun and Flash aren't instant hate-grabbers anymore?

Not any moreso than provoke is in a situation that you'd actually need to grab it. If you're using it every 22 seconds (assuming full haste setup) you're eating 1/6 -> 1/7 of your MP bar (which I guess is sort of moot thanks to the advent of autorefresh for a paladin giving you just slightly over 50 MP back in the time it'd take for the timers to cool down with refresh and ballad) just so you can...

Stun is proactive damage mitigation

Stop a monster for a duration that actually manages to last shorter than it takes for the spell's connection to process in the log in the first place, or blind it for maybe one hit, if it actually does so, which is a coin flip anyway.

far superior to defensive damage mitigation like healing.

This is where we'll have to disagree. If you take damage (and you do as a tank) you open up an opportunity for healing. If someone can use said healing to not only keep the mob's attention when necessary but also lower the potential for the support mages to pull hate then wouldnt that be more of a safety valve to prevent them from being pulled in than stun? We both have DRK capped out, we should very well both know that stun isn't gonna prevent anything short of interrupting a spell, which is why it's used anyway.

PLD/DRK is far superior to WAR/WHM in that category as well. +7 MP with whatever you get back off Ethereal means sustained Cure III spam on tanks while a wyrm is in flight, y'know, the time mages actually build up hate.

Assuming your tanks don't have a proper resist build when tiamat's flying, yeah. I've seen the flight antics of tiamat (save inferno blast, which is exactly what you'd use curaga on anyway as a WAR/WHM) completely staved off with the use of a regen 3.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/meolol/29lol.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/meolol/inferno.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48/meolol/jorm8.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48.../tiafiraga.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a48...l/jormwing.jpg


Easily low enough for him to practically keep himself up, and warriors get way more in resist gear than he does as a paladin as far as tiamat is concerned.

That last portion basically summarizes to: PLD/WHM gets auto-regen, SJ MDB, and ds curaga2 once very 10 mins vs. PLD/DRK which gets Stun and Last Resort/WeaponBash/SoulEater. I'll take the frequency and usefulness of Stun over any of the benefits /WHM offers, but again, my WHM is Lv4 so idk.

Dunno dude, I think what's being summarized here is both sides saying "Dont knock it till you've tried it", which I guess can just be settled by both sides agreeing to disagree :/ oh well.

[metalchocobo]

Sorry it was such a sloppy kill, I'll be sure to bug you for your 4 hour Tiamat Kill guide next time I see ya.

Dude you guys have been around about a year longer than we have, and we still kill Fafhogg, Tiamat, and Jorm faster than you. As soon as you ape-shits learn how to kill Jorm (or Tiamat for that matter) in less than 4 hours, you can stop getting on our case about a Tiamat which we stalled for more than an hour with the only tank being a Galka Samurai.

I'm going to be the less retarded man here though and I won't call you guys out on your slow kills anymore, since that's how this whole argument started in the first place.

The idea is to let the 2 NIN tank, with me grabbing hate (at will) in the event 1) a NIN is roar'd 2) a NIN is killed.

We do the same thing, but we generally use 2 NIN/DRKs and a NIN/WAR. It works really well suprisingly, especially when both NIN/DRKs can keep it stunned.

The same effect can be achieved with a PLD/WAR or PLD/NIN, however, having both Stun and Flash available to help NINs when Utsu is down is much more useful than having Provoke or Utsusemi ready. /DRK also offers more hate grabbing /ja than /WAR or /NIN.

That's actually not a bad idea at all, as long as you don't get hit. Unfortunately, in double roar situations (and other times) you WILL get hit, and as shown by the screenshots, you get hit pretty ****ing hard. When someone in ls said "LOL Chiz is PLD/DRK" I thought you were being stupid, but now that I see it that way it's not the worst idea in the world. And yeah, PLD/WAR isn't exactly the best option out there >_>
[/b]

[supaswimma]

you guys forget, chiz is also the guy who gives his thf a brd in the party for faf

wheres nynja to back me up?

[Arvin]

I actually think its just a matter of preference really. All of you tanks just need to stick to your guns.

8)

[metalchocobo]

you guys forget, chiz is also the guy who gives his thf a brd in the party for faf

wheres nynja to back me up?

Because having a BRD in the DD pt is a bad idea

[Ryko]

you guys forget, chiz is also the guy who gives his thf a brd in the party for faf

wheres nynja to back me up?

If you have the extra BRD to spare, why the hell not? If you have hate planters and you have BLMs, why the hell wouldnt you opt to give the people who keep the BLMs alive the extra capability of damage?

[Maximilianbob]

Let it not seem like I'm just trying to bust your chops dude since trial and error is still a perfectly valid method of experimentation

Trial and error? Nah its a proven winner. Not the first time I've used PLD/DRK on CoP Wyrm, and certainly not the last.

but to be honest though I don't know how much of a safety valve you can consider it when your backup is eating 525 damage crits when tiamat's MS is up with abosolutely 0 way to make sure the thing doesnt connect to you at all.

As opposed to the 800-900 1-shot crits to a support job. Sure, grabbing hate during MS isn't ideal as PLD/DRK, but its really not much different than PLD/WAR. I have the same defensive tools I use to help NINs through the duration of the fight, stun and flash, although its kind of a double-edged sword since hate will be on me longer.

[quote:05047]Furthermore if a tank dies or gets roared, it clears their hate completely, if you just subbed NIN and did what you could to pull hate then it's not like you wouldnt be in third place on the hate list anyway,

That's absolutely not true. Its easy for a mage to be higher in the hate queue than a 3rd tank, especially if tanks are constantly dying or being roared. Easier to see on Jorm than on Tiamat. When you get double roared or even that occasionaly triple roar, a PLD/DRK can get hate back within 1 action/spell cycle, a PLD/NIN cannot (without using Invincible).

with a guaranteed way to mitigate damage. You'd almost be better served capping out your WAR (which you're doing atm) and subbing WHM for that purpose since defender would at least push that crit cap down a little bit and if you're just tertiary you'd have plenty of time to 1) throw stoneskin up and 2) Bust off a DS curagaII for instant hate in case you need to grab it immediately.

/WAR has no guaranteed way to mitigate damage. Sure defender helps some, but I prefer VIT over DEF when trying to lower crit or WS damage. WAR/WHM? I guess that's a possibility, but it can't be compared to PLD/DRK in terms of hate gaining, survivability and overall usefulness over the course of the fight. Plus my WHM has been Lv4 for about 2 years now. :/

Chiz[/quote:05047]

Perhaps you should add that you had 39 people with little or no melee, spammed summoners at it, mostly seal slept it on the ground between BPs 10->0, and had at least five white mages by my count? In other words your support was significant, and your damage mostly hateless.

Really the only strength of pld/drk you've shown is that you can get hate. Then you can lose it all by proceeding to hemorrhage it through your ears by taking 500-600 on the ground during MS, spending mp on a short lived stun, and play backup tank to NQ arhat ninjas with your 4/5 kaiser and kbody? Your support could also be stunning in enmity down, flashing in enmity down, etc if you really need support - it adds hate but it seems like dubious benefits to do it if you're going to be spamming cures on them anyway, you're adding to their hate list and sloughing off your own hate...which is more or less what happened from what I saw yesterday.

And NIN/DRK gets similar hate tools as anything /drk, except it gets shadows, so you have to choose A. PLD/DRK, with flash - a maybe missed attack - or B. Not massive unavoidable physical damage (NIN/DRK) along with JAs that can be used with little penalty (hello souleater). Clearly you prefer the massive physical damage, which I can't fault you for.

The big benefit, as stated earlier, of war/whm is that you get nice hearty curagas for aoe damage which will give you massive hate. Stun...probably won't be stopping most of those except by luck.

[chiz]

Not any moreso than provoke is in a situation that you'd actually need to grab it. If you're using it every 22 seconds (assuming full haste setup) you're eating 1/6 -> 1/7 of your MP bar (which I guess is sort of moot thanks to the advent of autorefresh for a paladin giving you just slightly over 50 MP back in the time it'd take for the timers to cool down with refresh and ballad) just so you can...

Except the comparison was WAR/WHM to PLD/DRK, so its Provoke campered to both Stun AND Flash. Both Stun and Flash do more than just attempt to pull hate, they increase the chances the person who needs hate pulled off them actually survives. And ya, the auto-refresh patch and introduction of Ethereal helped a ton, I don't need to swap in Royal's or rest if I'm low on MP anymore.

Stop a monster for a duration that actually manages to last shorter than it takes for the spell's connection to process in the log in the first place, or blind it for maybe one hit, if it actually does so, which is a coin flip anyway.

Main benefit is to effectively reduce the recast timers for NINs by reducing the frequency of attacks in any given amount of time, the occasional lucky Stun of those nasty TP moves and spells is just luck honestly. Flash and Stun used simultaneously allow most any NIN to get through an Ichi cast in one piece and if you happen to pull hate at a point they might not survive a MS DA the same purpose was served.

This is where we'll have to disagree. If you take damage (and you do as a tank) you open up an opportunity for healing. If someone can use said healing to not only keep the mob's attention when necessary but also lower the potential for the support mages to pull hate then wouldnt that be more of a safety valve to prevent them from being pulled in than stun? We both have DRK capped out, we should very well both know that stun isn't gonna prevent anything short of interrupting a spell, which is why it's used anyway.

Again, referencing my previous reply, I don't use it to try to stun TP moves or even spells. I let the RDMs with Fast Cast 45 take care of that. If your NIN is getting wailed on and 1 hit away from death, you Stun. That's preventative damage mitigation. Any Blasts, Flails, Wings or spells you happen to catch are just a bonus. I never disagreed on the healing, that's why I take PLD/DRK over a 3rd tank like NIN/DRK. On PLD/DRK I can at least heal myself and the other 2 tanks instead of just waiting for a tank to eat it while sponging MP. 2 tanks can hold hate fine while staying safely within cast and /ja timers, you only need that 3rd tank with hate built up in the event of roar or death, both of which happen frequently on CoP wyrms.

Assuming your tanks don't have a proper resist build when tiamat's flying, yeah. I've seen the flight antics of tiamat (save inferno blast, which is exactly what you'd use curaga on anyway as a WAR/WHM) completely staved off with the use of a regen 3.

I know most of them, myself included, don't carry full resist gear, but then again I don't see them spending hours at a time camping a mob that pops every 72+ hours.

Its certainly nice to hit a 75% resist but its far from reliable even with a full resist build. I guess now would be a good time to post pics of back to back stuns on Flame Blast mixed in with a few intimidation procs from last night, but honestly I didn't think to or care enough to screen shot them.

Dunno dude, I think what's being summarized here is both sides saying "Dont knock it till you've tried it", which I guess can just be settled by both sides agreeing to disagree :/ oh well.

lol k.

[metalchocobo]

Maxbob for the fucking win.

We'll see though. And, like Ryko said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying something new. If you don't like it, don't bite the bait. I know I won't be leveling DRK to 37 anytime soon (because I'm lazy, Ninja was bad enough), so I won't experience it firsthand.

[Ryko]

The intimidation proc is pretty much a non-sequitir as it's something that can happen regardless of sub or main choice between the 2 options.

[Deadhawk]

helloder Max.

I don't wear NQ arhats, and I doubt our other tanks do either <_>

[Maximilianbob]

Really the moral of the story is, you take what your support lets you. If your support sucks (can't stun! can't cure! they eat the doritos and leave the nilla wafers!) you have to take a very different thing from when the mages bring their own chips.

However.

I had an assault scheduled yesterday with a member in ed who I like to do things with, which got put off because tiamat took too long.

So this one is for pld/drk.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8...00424hb.th.png

k afk

[Ryko]

He wasn't talking about you, deadhawk.

Edit: Osnap

[Maximilianbob]

helloder Max.

I don't wear NQ arhats, and I doubt our other tanks do either <_>

Untrue, I was referring to whitesnake. Who I might add, is HOT in his dring.

EDIT: I'm sure it sounds like I'm coming off as anti-chiz and anti notED. Sorry. I don't mean to. But these things are contextual, and if you say "war/whm is grreat, IRON loves it!!!!" it should probably say "...with a relic horn bard" attached to it.

[metalchocobo]

>_>



<_<

[Deadhawk]

Meh whatever floats your boat. Never really checked him except for when he was on PLD when he got his dring.

[chiz]

Dude you guys have been around about a year longer than we have, and we still kill Fafhogg, Tiamat, and Jorm faster than you. As soon as you ape-shits learn how to kill Jorm (or Tiamat for that matter) in less than 4 hours, you can stop getting on our case about a Tiamat which we stalled for more than an hour with the only tank being a Galka Samurai.

You guys killed Jorm? Congratulations! Last time we showed any interest in that mob, you guys were gearing up for the big event but we stole'd it. :/ As for kill time lol, here we go again. John, the PLD who sits on the sidelines at the 150+ NA Primetime camps and brags about 15 minute "burn downs". You must've missed the Fafnir we burned down in 13 minutes. I made a sarcastic comment about it and someone in your LS actually fucking corrected me saying it was a 13 minute and XX second kill lol. GG. To my knowledge that time still stands. I guess we need to put in disclaimers like "We burn down mobs in 15 mins or less with a full alliance of perfect jobs and SCs, but in the early morning hours it can get fucking ugly."

I'm going to be the less retarded man here though and I won't call you guys out on your slow kills anymore, since that's how this whole argument started in the first place.

You're retarded? I'm sorry.

We do the same thing, but we generally use 2 NIN/DRKs and a NIN/WAR. It works really well suprisingly, especially when both NIN/DRKs can keep it stunned.

K, now we're getting somewhere. Cept the 3rd tank doesn't really do much tanking, or need to, yet he's eating up the same amount of cures from AoE, needing the same amount of MP to keep him hasted and cured, and taking up one more spot in the tank PT which could be an extra BRD, RDM or WHM.

That's actually not a bad idea at all, as long as you don't get hit. Unfortunately, in double roar situations (and other times) you WILL get hit, and as shown by the screenshots, you get hit pretty ****ing hard. When someone in ls said "LOL Chiz is PLD/DRK" I thought you were being stupid, but now that I see it that way it's not the worst idea in the world. And yeah, PLD/WAR isn't exactly the best option out there >_>

No harder than any other NIN or /NIN when Utsusemi is down. But once again, my intention isn't to main tank, so me taking 500 damage on MS is still better than losing a WHM/RDM/BRD for 5 minutes.

[Shuemue]

My ls killed Tia with a PLD/DRK and NIN/DRK... worked a treat, dead in around 45 mins. Of course 7 SMN and 2 DRKs with Ridill and KC didn't hinder us much >_>

[Ryko]

I'm sure it sounds like I'm coming off as anti-chiz and anti notED. Sorry. I don't mean to. But these things are contextual, and if you say "war/whm is grreat, IRON loves it!!!!" it should probably say "...with a relic horn bard" attached to it.

>_> isn't it 2 now?