Excalibur Additional Effect

[Brennon]

love how every relic thread digress into whether it is worth the money

"cue iRelic spider web pic"

I think it brings into contrast those who say a dynamis LS should award relic weapon to a person, or whether a person is upgrading their relic largely through their own effort.

Lots of people think relic weapons not worth it, and that's fine, nobody makes them upgrade one.

Some people, including me, think it's definately worth it, and if i had to start all over, i'd start right back to work on another weapon, because its something that i enjoy having and feel it was worth the investment.

But when you have a whole dynamis LS, it's probably gonna include some people from both groups, therefore alot of them will be unhappy if the LS just gives all currency to one person as a sort of reward or something. I don't think (my own personal opinion) anyone should get a relic weapon that way, they don't appreciate the true value and the amount of work it takes to get one if its just handed to them.

this post isn't intended to start a debate or argument, this is just my opinion, if you disagree, fine.

[Lockecole]

My opinion is, if its largely something funded by your own efforts, of course a Relic weapon is worth it. If you can afford one, do it. In this case, I feel any Relic weapon is worth it, regardless of usefulness, mainly because odds are its done for Epeen (or Evag for you girls out there).

On the other hand, if you have a Relic weapon largely funded (or entirely) by an LS, I feel the LS and how it would benefit as a whole from the Relic weapon should be taken into consideration. Look what happened with BG and Excalibur. Look how a whole bunch of wasted time, on an item that has next to no benefit for endgame fights can really tear an LS apart. Its hard to feel good about an accomplishment when you're hoping you had 7MP/tic or an Aegis right about now. Basically there's more repercussions and factors to consider if its an LS decision and accomplishment, as opposed to something done entirely by someone on their own.

[Syn]

Whats Metatron Torment damage like>?

From what I've heard Metatron Torment at 100TP is the same as a 200TP Steel Cyclone, and the damage doesn't increase with more TP.

sup martial bhuj.

Martial Bhuj can't do light > light. D;

[Brennon]

On the other hand, if you have a Relic weapon largely funded (or entirely) by an LS, I feel the LS and how it would benefit as a whole from the Relic weapon should be taken into consideration. Look what happened with BG and Excalibur. Look how a whole bunch of wasted time, on an item that has next to no benefit for endgame fights can really tear an LS apart. Its hard to feel good about an accomplishment when you're hoping you had 7MP/tic or an Aegis right about now. Basically there's more repercussions and factors to consider if its an LS decision and accomplishment, as opposed to something done entirely by someone on their own.

Thats sort of what i'm saying though you said it a little bit better than I did. There will always be people that think should have done a different weapon, or shouldn't do one at all.

[EdilbertX]

I found this to be mildly amusing. The guy is using Excalibur btw. Was this because of the fact that it was a critical hit that the Effect did so much? I wasn't aware the Addtl Effect damage was scaled up for criticals though.

Edit: Fixed link

I have seen this before on Spirits Within. In Sea the Ul'hpemde when they open there mouth/fac what ever. They can take double dmg on spirit within. I didn't believe it when someone in my LS told me. I called BS and made them prove it. But he was right even spirit within is subject to damage reduction and to damge increase based on mob type or ability.

[Dezzimal]

spirits within is nerfed in besieged. I tried it at 150% and only got 30 dmg, I should have gotten like 150ish I think?

[Nagamaki]

Qutrubs (in general, not talking about Besieged where all sorts of special damage modifiers apply) have a simple damage multiplier on them, they operate basically like hpemdes that permanently sit in the open position. What that means is its not defense or magic defense going on, which is why damage from things that normally do static damage (or static damage range) is affected, like Chi Blast or SW.

As for relics, horn and shield are both amazing, but as far as I'm concerned mobs don't die from the PLD taking less damage, or from mages getting more MP a tick from ballad. A relic weapon properly used can be devastating damage tool. However, I do agree that getting a relic should be more of a personnal effort, not something you get picked for and receive full LS currency support for. That's what leads to things like people quitting right after they get a relic, or people getting relics for jobs they don't even have levelled, don't level and never play.

[layoneil]

As for relics, horn and shield are both amazing, but as far as I'm concerned mobs don't die from the PLD taking less damage, or from mages getting more MP a tick from ballad.

mobs DO die faster from the PLD taking less damage. PLD taking less damage = PLD holding more hate, PLD holding more hate = damage dealers not having to hold back as much.

and Gjallahorn is mostly for PLDs, WAR/WHMs, NIN/WHMs to be used for the same effect. more MP for tanks to generate more hate.

i call BS if your tanks are so good that your DDs are already going balls to the wall on every mob in the game and lower damage or more MP does nothing to help them get/maintain hate.

occassionally, you would use Gjallahorn for mages, Dynamis when stuff dies fast, Vrtra when you really need the BLMs to have enough MP to keep up with the Summons. but people who think Gjallahorn is for mages only need to use their head more.

or people getting relics for jobs they don't even have levelled, don't level and never play.

that's just stupid if you allow that to happen. if you give them a relic, you're going to make them play the job too.

[Lockecole]

As for relics, horn and shield are both amazing, but as far as I'm concerned mobs don't die from the PLD taking less damage, or from mages getting more MP a tick from ballad.

mobs DO die faster from the PLD taking less damage. PLD taking less damage = PLD holding more hate, PLD holding more hate = damage dealers not having to hold back as much.

and Gjallahorn is mostly for PLDs, WAR/WHMs, NIN/WHMs to be used for the same effect. more MP for tanks to generate more hate.

i call BS if your tanks are so good that your DDs are already going balls to the wall on every mob in the game and lower damage or more MP does nothing to help them get/maintain hate.

occassionally, you would use Gjallahorn for mages, Dynamis when stuff dies fast, Vrtra when you really need the BLMs to have enough MP to keep up with the Summons. but people who think Gjallahorn is for mages only need to use their head more.

or people getting relics for jobs they don't even have levelled, don't level and never play.

that's just stupid if you allow that to happen. if you give them a relic, you're going to make them play the job too.

If we had Gjallhorn/Aegis, I wouldnt have to hold TP on Cerberus till Stoneskin in fear of pulling hate, SMNs could BP in the air on Tiamats, and all around alliances would just run smoother. Hell if you had a Gjallhorn, I'd make it mandatory for that BRD to switch in and out of at least 2 PTs, to spread the 7mp/tic love. :D

[Nagamaki]

The difference Aegis makes won't turn your PLD into a magical hate machine, same thing with the MP from the horn. My point wasn't that the shield and horn are not good, but that they're not the only useful relics. Obviously the horn is useful beyond just mages (and beyond just ballad, since it adds significant amounts to BRD skills) but the usefulness of the horn wasn't in question here. A lot of people seem to believe every other relic is totally useless and pure ego, and that's just not true, they can be used to benefit the group too and not just through 1 DD going more damage.

As for the giving a relic to someone that doesn't play a job, I perfectly agree with you but it happens, at least on Seraph.

[Boyiee]

"Nagamaki uses Final heaven..."

As for the giving a relic to someone that doesn't play a job, I perfectly agree with you but it happens, at least on Seraph.

were you referring to yourself? You're mnk in the screeny, but you do have whm and thf lvl'd...

[layoneil]

The difference Aegis makes won't turn your PLD into a magical hate machine, same thing with the MP from the horn.

i don't know how good Aegis is but i can't see how the Horn doesn't. i've seen day in and day out how much hate a few extra Curagas and a few more Cure IVs provide.

increasing MP Refresh by more than 50% should increase hate by more than 25% if they are using that MP to generate hate.

but that they're not the only useful relics.

people who say they are "useless" are exaggerating. but overall usefulness is relative.

adding hate to 1-3 tanks has the same effect as reducing hate for the 15+ other people.

and not just through 1 DD going more damage.

that's what weapons do. i don't know what you're getting at.

[Nagamaki]

Because I would talk about how I think its retarded to give relics to people who don't play a job if I didn't play it myself... As it is I play MNK 80% of the time, and that will go up when I go from Caestus to Spharai.

No, I'm not talking about myself, or anyone in my LS for that matter.

Regarding the MP difference, PLD just had Auto Refresh added to it, and most endgame PLDs picked Ethereal Earring from Apocalypse Nigh. It helps PLDs use more spells and keep hate, but it didn't suddenly make PLDs hold perfect hate, and the combination of those 2 is pretty much equivalent to the horn effect on MP (for PLD/WAR in Dragon's Aery). A COR using Evoker's Roll with a SMN in PT will provide a new source of MP for tanks as well, the horn is a great way to increase it but recent additions to the game added a lot of options.

Regarding the weapons, they increase the damage from 1 DD directly, but they also allow you to do different things, like closing a multilevel SC with TA on a tank (or SATA for non-wyrms) for a greater chunk of hate than a lower level SC. A doubled Lv3 SC also increases the MB damage factor, thus helping BLM damage. The higher level SC damage would definitely be a greater factor if mobs didn't resist skillchains so heavily (in fact, it would be sickeningly powerful) but resisted multi-level SCs still provide a very significant MB bonus.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

spirits within is nerfed in besieged. I tried it at 150% and only got 30 dmg, I should have gotten like 150ish I think?

I guess that's proof that the 'BLM nerf' is an 80% magic damage reduction.

[Vobent]

I wouldn't say that. Look at the en-spell damage. >,>

[layoneil]

It helps PLDs use more spells and keep hate, but it didn't suddenly make PLDs hold perfect hate

there's no such thing as perfect hate. maybe if PLDs got a 3 minute recast Chainspell Manafont.

the combination of those 2 is pretty much equivalent to the horn effect on MP (for PLD/WAR in Dragon's Aery).

Gjallahorn is +4 MP/tic

Auto-Refresh is +1 MP/tic

Ethereal Earring is not equivalent to +3 MP/tic refresh, you lose hate each and every time you get MP from Ethereal, the more MP you get, the more hate you are losing as well.

and for PLD/NIN or NIN tank setups, Ethereal wouldn't proc at the rate of 3MP/tic.

even with PLD/WARs when you have 2 (or 3) of them, only one is getting MP from melee hits. the tanks that are not getting hit aren't getting any MP from their Ethereals until AOEs.

Gjallahorn gives a lot more hate than Ethereal to your entire tank PT as a whole.

A COR using Evoker's Roll with a SMN in PT will provide a new source of MP for tanks as well

that's also 2 party spots which especially in a BC like Ouryu, Bahamut, Proto-whatever you don't have. as opposed to 1 item on a job that you probably already have in the party doing the same exact thing he was doing without that item.

you can also stack Gjallahorn on top of Evoker's Roll.

but they also allow you to do different things, like closing a multilevel SC with TA on a tank (or SATA for non-wyrms) for a greater chunk of hate than a lower level SC.

closing a SC on a tank isn't something different, that's something you could pretty much always do.

also you can only Trick on 1 tank, whereas the extra MP refresh goes to all the tanks from Ballad.

comparatively, unless you're Tricking 2k+ WS on one tank, you're not giving the same kind of hate.

A doubled Lv3 SC also increases the MB damage factor, thus helping BLM damage.

BLMs that i've seen usually don't need help increasing damage, they need help not dying.

[Byrd]

I lost the lot on excalibur but briefly saw it while it was in the LS

Bikkwin getting the Excalibur came down to a lot between multiple people?

Ouch, worst lost lot ever.

[Tekki]

People seem to ignore the defensive factor of Excalibur as well.

As it shows in the .dat files and as it is reported, it gives a regen based on tp after WSing. Discordian also posted some reports of finding himself getting random invincibility which he first discovered while getting hit by MNK mobs in dynamis. I don’t know if anyone can confirm or expand on that those ideas.

I am currently doing relic and yes I’ve heard all of the criticism. “It’s not worth the gil, you should do Aegis blah blah.”

The only thing I can say is I have just about everything I want on my PLD. I don’t play or desire to play any other job. (For some odd reason, even though I’ve been playing as a 75PLD for over 13months, I still get excited when I suit up and get ready to tank something.) I have all my ends tied and the only thing I can do at this point is wait to get lucky on the three kings. (Not a single martial has dropped in my 13months of camping and killing these) I have my the Valor I want, I don’t need much more from limbus, and Ive white boxed the only piece of equipment I’ve cared to white box, my martial head.

What else is there to do? Relic. I have 100 leathercrafting and the patience to work on the gil needed. The rare/ex items won’t be difficult to obtain when I really need them (Silly Force had to drop instead of glory of course) … and I have all my loose ends tied on my PLD gear. I can see where it may not be worth it for some who still have other expensive things to take care of like leveling another job to 75 or decking out their current job to a reasonable max. But for someone who really can’t go any further on his character past merits and waiting to get lucky on the kings, relic is very much worth it.

[Lockecole]

A doubled Lv3 SC also increases the MB damage factor, thus helping BLM damage. The higher level SC damage would definitely be a greater factor if mobs didn't resist skillchains so heavily (in fact, it would be sickeningly powerful) but resisted multi-level SCs still provide a very significant MB bonus.

Is this true? Making a level 3 off of a level 3 SC, increases MB damage bonus? I never heard this, how much moreso then a normal MB?

[Tekki]

I lost the lot on excalibur but briefly saw it while it was in the LS

Bikkwin getting the Excalibur came down to a lot between multiple people?

Ouch, worst lost lot ever.

so did i miss some drama or do i need to dig up something i missed? Did Bikkwin quit or something happen as a result of him getting the relic? I sensed some drama over him getting the relic but never saw anything pasted people questioning him getting the relic over others. Now your posts make it seemed something drastically terrible happened lol.