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  1. #1
    E. Body
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    Utsusemi / Dualwield -- Recast+Cap

    Hello, I'm a long time reader, first time poster, and trying to make my first post worthwhile. I play NIN75 on Bismarck, and was fooling around camping, when I checked some things that seemed wierd...

    (This info might be pertinent to other jobs, but mainly NIN)


    A while ago, someone posted that spells (spec. NIN) cap at 50% Haste, while attack rate caps at or around 70% Haste. I may be completely off, this may be old news (sorry if it is), but I don't think you can cap recast @ 50% solo.

    Why?

    I love to solo, and I often use my shinobi latent gear (yellow HP: 4% Haste, red HP: 24% haste) for shits and giggles, and I got mad aggro camping an NM today, which took me to around 100 HP. According to most databases/users, Shinobi items (The set of ring/earring latent items lv50 and lv70 respectively, job specific) trigger only at certain HP and TP under 100%. The HP trigger is true, I've actually never really tested the TP stuff and just accepted it as fact.

    Now, my current haste build, -dusk gloves, is: Haidate (5%), Fumas (3%), Turban (5%), add on the two shinobi items (+24%) and that's a 37% haste build. Testing out recasts on Utsusemi, I saw that it capped @ 33 seconds no matter what -- meaning 12 seconds off (to specify, I only tested Uts:Ni).

    So I tried different combinations of haste gear, equipping and unequipping here and there, and it seems that through equipment, the maximum haste one can get for recast timers only is 25%, which translates to 12 seconds roughly on Utsusemi: Ni.

    The maximum haste I refer to, again, is ONLY for equipment -- obviously you can cap timers @ 50% with spells.

    Again, the reason why I think the cap is 25%, more likely some number between 21-25%, is because when I was in RedHP, with all haste equipped (37%), my recast timer for Ni was 33 seconds. With ONLY Haidate and Earring equipped, it was still at 33 seconds, but I'm wearing 12% less haste in gear.

    If anyone would like to try it out, please post your findings -- I'd love to be wrong in this case.

    As for a conclusion, specific to NIN / solo'ing, I think this would possibly make the AF2 more worthwhile, because there are only 3 (4 if you SJ NIN) slots that you can put "Enhance Dual Wield" gear on, while there are many more slots where you can put haste on -- especially if you, like me, love redHP'ing with latent items. The only reason this would be pointless, however, would be if Dual Wield's cap is well within 3 enhancements (5% suppainomimi, 5% af body, 5%? pants), and maybe caps at like 10% in items. Thus, my two questions are ultimately:

    1) Is the cap on Utsusemi (Ni), while purely solo (no outside spells), 25% haste, or 12 seconds? (This is NIN Mainjob)

    2) What is the cap on dual wield?


    I unfortunately don't have the AF Pants piece, and don't know of a good way to test out dual wield -- aside from "one mississippi" ...I'd also appreciate anyone who knows a good way of testing dualwield to share some information on this matter.

  2. #2
    E. Body
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    A second conclusion which can be made, which was brought to my attention by Luftig, is how haste really works -- is it similar to phys dmg reduction?

    Example:

    Arhat's +1 body/headgear gives -15% phys dmg reduction if the two numbers are added up, but that's not the case. It works as though 9% would be reduced by the body gear, but the 6% is a reduction of the remaining phys dmg, so in actuallity, if it were to be added, it would be significanlty less than 15% (more like 10-11% max)

    Anyway, the funny thing is, I really don't know if thats how phys dmg really works, because I've just accepted that it does just that. But it may be that haste works similarly?

    So that if 25% haste cuts off 12 seconds, an additional 12% haste wouldn't cut off 6 seconds, but 12% off the remaining 33seconds...something like that.

  3. #3
    Relic Shield
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr
    A second conclusion which can be made, which was brought to my attention by Luftig, is how haste really works -- is it similar to phys dmg reduction?

    Example:

    Arhat's +1 body/headgear gives -15% phys dmg reduction if the two numbers are added up, but that's not the case. It works as though 9% would be reduced by the body gear, but the 6% is a reduction of the remaining phys dmg, so in actuallity, if it were to be added, it would be significanlty less than 15% (more like 10-11% max)

    Anyway, the funny thing is, I really don't know if thats how phys dmg really works, because I've just accepted that it does just that. But it may be that haste works similarly?

    So that if 25% haste cuts off 12 seconds, an additional 12% haste wouldn't cut off 6 seconds, but 12% off the remaining 33seconds...something like that.
    Physical damage reduction gear was shown to stack here among other places.

  4. #4
    E. Body
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    Thanks =) but my initial post is still relevant =P

  5. #5
    Sea Torques
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    Haste cap from gear is 25%. I tested this on both ninjutsu and whm spells like reraise that have a nice round 60 base recast time.
    It's easier on monk because you don't need latent to get above 25% (monk gets 30% with 4 items, 35% if you count subbing drg etc).
    Haste songs and spells can add 25% above this cap to 50%, I also verified this on mnk/whm and mnk/nin (down to 15sec on ichi, 22 on ni, and 30s on reraise).
    (I had an entry about this, haste for monks, on my LJ http://genomeffxi.livejournal.com/#entry_7471 )
    Attack speed doesn't cap at 25%, it was a bit more of a pain to test, I imagine that it caps at some higher point since 100% haste obviously wouldn't make sense.

    So I can support your findings (I think it's been known for a while but now with turban it's easier for more people to test it).
    I don't know much about dual wield =P

  6. #6
    E. Body
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    meh, so long as I didn't get a GTFO-card or w/e, I'm content =P

    Any idea on what to use to test dualwield? the old stopwatch -- start/stop timing =\ ?

  7. #7
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by genome
    It's easier on monk because you don't need latent to get above 25% (monk gets 30% with 4 items, 35% if you count subbing drg etc).
    Black Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Fuma Sune-Ate and Walahra is four items for 25% haste, where's the other 5% coming from?

  8. #8
    Mr. Bananagrabber
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    /DRG and the Haste+5% earring?

  9. #9
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr
    meh, so long as I didn't get a GTFO-card or w/e, I'm content =P

    Any idea on what to use to test dualwield? the old stopwatch -- start/stop timing =\ ?
    I know what not to use: brutal earring, war sub, monk sub, any mob that uses slow/stun moves, any weapon that occasionally attacks x times. Then you can average over many hits, maybe even use a parser to count all your hits on 1 mob, and just time from first attack to last attack, and divide by total number of attacks. It will probably be easier and more accurate.

  10. #10
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krandor
    /DRG and the Haste+5% earring?
    That would fall into the "35% if you count subbing drg" part of the quote.

  11. #11
    Sea Torques
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russta
    Quote Originally Posted by genome
    It's easier on monk because you don't need latent to get above 25% (monk gets 30% with 4 items, 35% if you count subbing drg etc).
    Black Belt, Byakko's Haidate, Fuma Sune-Ate and Walahra is four items for 25% haste, where's the other 5% coming from?
    Capricorn staff of course! :wink: not so useful for fighting, but for testing it's pretty handy

  12. #12
    Mr. Bananagrabber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russta
    Quote Originally Posted by Krandor
    /DRG and the Haste+5% earring?
    That would fall into the "35% if you count subbing drg" part of the quote.
    Dur, didn't even read that. Writing a paper in class while I'm reading this so not paying the most attention. I'm lost then.

  13. #13
    E. Body
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    Was it divisortheory that said he was working on a parser that would include hit-rate, and by extension, dualwield rate?

    No intention to derail, but any idea how that's going to work?

  14. #14
    Chram
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyr
    Was it divisortheory that said he was working on a parser that would include hit-rate, and by extension, dualwield rate?

    No intention to derail, but any idea how that's going to work?
    I was thinking about this the other day. I really hope he gets it sorted, anything is better than the piece of shit we have to work with now.

  15. #15
    Mr. Bananagrabber
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    I think he stated that that would be insanely hard to properly "parse," because the log wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Dual Wielded attacks, multi-attack weapons, Double Attacks, etc

  16. #16
    >The Implying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krandor
    I think he stated that that would be insanely hard to properly "parse," because the log wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Dual Wielded attacks, multi-attack weapons, Double Attacks, etc
    Use a WHM subjob.
    Remove equipment that enhances Dual Wield, Double Attack, etc.

    Get a relic katana for offhand use. It should increase delay enough to be measurable and noticable with the effects of Haste equipment.

  17. #17
    Mr. Bananagrabber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeryhn
    Quote Originally Posted by Krandor
    I think he stated that that would be insanely hard to properly "parse," because the log wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Dual Wielded attacks, multi-attack weapons, Double Attacks, etc
    Use a WHM subjob.
    Remove equipment that enhances Dual Wield, Double Attack, etc.

    Get a relic katana for offhand use. It should increase delay enough to be measurable and noticable with the effects of Haste equipment.
    Yeah, he was referring to using it in xp situations or other situations where multiple people would be swinging at a mob. Solo with no forms of Double Attack gear it would be "fairly" easy to test this.

    I think actually Nny tested this (meaning what the various levels of Dual Wield do for delay) at some point using TP as a measure, it's hidden somewhere on KI I think.

  18. #18
    CoP Dynamis
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    Yeah I tested via TP gain with two high delay clubs (No relic katana), I went into 60 cap zone so as not to have DW 4 problems when testing AF body and DW3

    DW 1, 3, and 4 = 10%

    DW 2 and AF Body = 5%

  19. #19

    1 is obvious
    2 is obvious
    3 is AF body right?
    When is 4?
    5 is Koga Pants?
    Is that all?

  20. #20

    The parser is making progress. Slow but steady. You can see a screenshot of how it looked 2 weeks ago:


    The only thing you really see here though is my vision for how the information will be organized and displayed. Much more structured than in Spyle's parser, with the ability to configure multiple "views" of data.

    I've been making slow progress recently though, for a couple of reasons. First, I rely on a third party tool to read the chat log from memory. Unfortunately, that tool is actually a UI program by itself, and the parser has to exist as a "plugin". This fucking pisses me off, I hate it, and he's said basically that he has no intention to make a DLL only interface so that people don't have to load his app first. Because of this, I've been spending some time doing some research into how I can get the chat log directly from memory on my own. I have some ideas I'll try pretty soon.

    Another reason it was moving slowly at first is that I had the wrong initial idea for implementing the chat log message format parsing engine. At first I was writing actual code for parsing and storing every type of message. Each time I wanted to add support for recognizing a new type of message in the chat log, I had to go and write 100 lines of code. It was really annoying, but I finally came up with a much more general system where I can specify all the rules, formats, and parameters for various chat log messages in an XML file, then I read that XML file. It makes it much more convenient to support new types of messages. Lastly, I've been busy playing the game lol.

    I'm still working on it though, and before I implemented that XML parsing of rules/message formats, it actually worked and displayed counters for crit rate, number of hits/misses, accuracy, and a few other counters.

    Regarding dual wield and haste, I've been thinking about this and have some ideas. There's no way it will be able to measure perfectly, but I have some ideas for a heuristic (i.e. guessing) algorithm. Pseudocode for the algorithm would be something like this:

    Code:
    TotalNumberOfSecondsFighting = 0
    FightSequenceStartTime = 0
    IsCurrentlyFighting = false
    
    Repeat Forever
             Whenever PlayerHitsOrMissesEnemy
                      if (IsCurrentlyFighting == false)
                               FightSequenceStartTime = Now
                      ResetFourSecondTimer
                      IsCurrentlyFighting = true
             End Whenever PlayerHitsOrMissesEnemy
    
             Whenever FourSecondTimerFires
                      TotalNumberOfSecondsFighting = TotalNumberOfSecondsFighting + (Now - FightSequenceStartTime - 4 Seconds)
                      FightSequenceStartTime = 0
                      IsCurrentlyFighting = false
             End Whenever FourSecondTimerFires
    End Repeat Forever
    In essence what this does is, when you hit a mob it records you as in "fighting" state. If you don't do anything for more than 4 seconds (e.g. because you're slept, because you're dead, because you disengaged, whatever) it decides that you "stopped" fighting 4 seconds ago. It then adds up the number of seconds that you WERE fighting to a running counter of how long you've been fighting. Note that the line ResetFourSecondTimer means that if a four second timer already exists, it's erased and initialized from scratch to count to 4 seconds. That way if you swing once, then swing again in 3 seconds, it keeps counting. Never stops until there's a 4 second gap.

    Instead of reporting a "Haste" stat as a percentage, it will instead report "Swings / Second". by taking (NumMeleeHits + NumMeleeMisses) / TotalNumberOfSecondsFighting. From that, you can get a pretty good guess about Haste from Attack Speed.

    This method has a few flas, but nothing is perfect when you're writing a parser such as this. You just have to make a model that's "as close as possible" to the real number. Again this is just an idea that I've been tossing around, if anyone wants to suggest a way to improve it I'm all ears.

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