Kraken/Ridill vs. Kraken

[divisortheory]

Some discussion came on my LS forum about a DRK/NIN using a Kraken/Ridill combo vs. just using a Kraken by itself. Someone said that using a Ridill "slows down the Kraken". This sounds like a lot of handwaving and heavy assumptions, does anyone have a parse of a DRK/NIN using kraken/ridill vs. the same DRK using kraken by itself on the same mobs? I'm curious which one really gives higher DoT. I worked out some numbers regarding how "fast" each combo really is. I made some assumptions which may be wrong, but feel free to correct them since I don't have either of these weapons.


Kraken has delay of 264. Ridill has delay of 236. Let's say Kraken 50% of the time is single hit, and 50% is from 2-8 (again, correct if wrong). Average the 2-8 since it can hit for 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and say 50% of the time it hits 5 times, and the other 50% it hits 1 time. Single handing a Kraken you have effective delay = 0.5 x 1 + 0.5 x 5 swings per round, or 3 swings per round on average. Where 1 round is 268 delay. So 3 swings / 268 delay = 1 swing / 89.333 delay

Dual Wielding Kraken and Ridill you get 3 swings per round average from Kraken, and .5 x 1 + .5 x 2.5 = 1.75 swings per round from Ridill. So total of 4.75 swings per round from the combo. Reduced Delay from Dual Wield bonus is (268+236) x .85 = 428.4, so 4.75 Swings / 428.4 Delay = 1 Swing / 90.189 Delay. Almost an immeasurable difference in swings/delay. With DRKs extra sword skill over club skill though (B- vs. C-) the extra damage output from equipping Ridill would in offhand would, in theory, outparse the Kraken only setup.


So anyway, that's my analysis, most likely built on false assumptions of how often the extra attacks proc. Anyone care to offer their own experience/observations?

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

On HNMs I'd imagine Kraken/Ridill is better due to the fact that Ridill has higher acc even though it has less hits (from my own experiences with different acc stuff extrapolated into this.) On anything else, why the fuck are you using a kraken?

[zek]

been discussed already, kraken by itself > ridill+kraken

[SassiAsura]

Wouldn't the drk prefer Ridill/Kraken? the Sword WS are slightly better no?
edit: plus damage...

[kearnsy]

I'm not a drk but from experience just using kraken is faster and puts out higher dot.

[Kaylia]

Wouldn't the drk prefer Ridill/Kraken? the Sword WS are slightly better no?
edit: plus damage...

No drk would use WS during souleater + krakken mode. >_> There is a long delay where you wont do anything after the WS,making you lose way more than you would have hit.

[divisortheory]

been discussed already, kraken by itself > ridill+kraken

I'm not saying that's not the case lol, but I'm not going to take anything on blind faith either. Why is it better? "a 2-3 hit weapon slows down a 2-8 hit weapon" is not a valid answer.

[RKenshin]

Kraken Club attacks 2-8 times way more than 50% of the time... I would guess it'd have to be around 80-90% of the time based on my observations. And yes, I do own one along with a Ridill, and have had both for over a year. Ridill on the other hand seems to attack 2-3 times more like 50-70% of the time.

Ridill slows Kraken down. Ridill doesn't attack 2-3 times often enough to come anywhere close the number of attacks that Kraken adds. It may look cool since you overlap your own attacks more, but Kraken alone will get the most hits in.

It's a pretty simple concept to understand as far as which is better for the most attacks. Attacking 2-8 times 80-90% of the time is infinately better than attacking 2-3 times 50-70% of the time, and using Ridill with Kraken will slow you down.

EDIT: More reasoning.

[divisortheory]

Kraken Club attacks 2-8 times way more than 50% of the time... I would guess it'd have to be around 80-90% of the time based on my observations. And yes, I do own one along with a Ridill, and have had both for over a year.

Ridill slows Kraken down. Ridill doesn't attack 2-3 times often enough to come anywhere close the number of attacks that Kraken adds. It may look cool since you overlap your own attacks more, but Kraken alone will get the most hits in.

What would you estimate the extra attack proc rate to be like on Ridill? 80-90% on kraken would be consistent with something like it has exactly the same chance to hit 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, or 8 times. Maybe Ridill is the same? Equal chance to hit 1, 2, or 3 times?

[RKenshin]

Kraken Club attacks 2-8 times way more than 50% of the time... I would guess it'd have to be around 80-90% of the time based on my observations. And yes, I do own one along with a Ridill, and have had both for over a year.

Ridill slows Kraken down. Ridill doesn't attack 2-3 times often enough to come anywhere close the number of attacks that Kraken adds. It may look cool since you overlap your own attacks more, but Kraken alone will get the most hits in.

What would you estimate the extra attack proc rate to be like on Ridill? 80-90% on kraken would be consistent with something like it has exactly the same chance to hit 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, or 8 times. Maybe Ridill is the same? Equal chance to hit 1, 2, or 3 times?

Just editted that information into the post before I saw this.

If there's one thing for certain though the 2-8 times happens more often with Kraken than it does with Ridill, and that alone is enough to make Ridill slow down Kraken.

[Sonomaa]

If there's one thing for certain though the 2-8 times happens more often with Kraken than it does with Ridill, and that alone is enough to make Ridill slow down Kraken.

good info to know

update your livejournal /shakesfist

[Kwechi]

When a weapon says "Occasionally attacks some amount of times" it makes a check for each amount of attacks. Take ridill for example, when it swings its either gonna swing once, twice, or three times. Making a 33% chance of each.

With a total of 66% of swinging more than once, that fits pretty well with what Rkenshin said.

With only a 10% chance of swinging once with KC, and 70% chance to have more swings than ridill, KC alone should win the parse. With the way souleater works on multihit weapons ridills damage isnt gonna compensate for the amount of swings lost.

[Maranella]

i'm a kraken warrior, but i loan out my club to an ls dark knight pretty often for DL KV etc. The thing i notice is that when a dark knight uses souleater w/o their 2hr, it makes a greater risk of instantly killing themselves say if the club procs 7 and then 8.

So maybe to answer your question, ridill/kraken might be better for more accurate and safer souleaters w/o 2hr, while kraken can remain champ for when they have 2hr up.

[kareface]

Ok, the mutlihit proc rate has been talked about as well.

All zilart multihit weapons act on the same principle. 50% is the bace proc for 2 hit, so on a weapon that can only proc 1-2 hits, the proc is only 50%. However, on weapons that can proc more then 2 his, for each hit above 2 the % chance of that happening is indapendent of every other chance. To clarify, the ridill for exampe, while it remains static that 50% of the time a double hit will proc, in addition theres a 15%(I can't remember the actual %, its been a while) chance that 3rd swing will take place. So the figures would look something more like 50% double attack, 15% tripple, 35% single.

The kracken operates under the same system.

Bad analogy warning:

Think of it like throwing a rock into a bucket, and for each additional swing there are more, slightly smaller buckets. There is a greater chance with more swings that you will land the rock in one of the buckets, but the smaller buckets will be harder to land frequently. While you have a better chance of not missing with more buckets, the % chance of hitting each bucket independently doesn't change.

Some jackass figured this out on alla, and posted a very well detailed test. But i'll be damned if i'm gonna sift through that hell hole for exact numbers. I do know for a fact that 50% was static for the 2 swing proc on all weapons, much past that...

Anyhoo, I hope it helps.

[Jizzle]

your adumbass if you use either on an HNM

[layoneil]

your adumbass if you use either on an HNM

you're a dumbass.

[divisortheory]

your adumbass if you use either on an HNM

Do you consider King Vinegarroon an HNM?

[Jeryhn]

your adumbass if you use either on an HNM

Do you consider King Vinegarroon an HNM?

It gives a title!

Btw, Kraken + Souleater + Bloodweapon = "That's hot." in a Paris Hilton voice.

[Lyramion]

I own Kraken for my WHM >>;


But yeah to confirm:

Instead of "Ocassionally attacks 2-8 times" could as well write "Always attacks 1-8 times" on kraken.


Also dual wielding kraken slows its TP gain down. You might swing faster ONCE but lower your TP 2-8 times. Dont use suppanomimi with an offhand kraken.

[Wizerd]

your adumbass if you use either on an HNM

you're a dumbass.

I don't think Jizzle realized that

A) the comparison is assuming Souleater is being used
B) what Souleater can do to things even with a low damage weapon

Hell, even I was confused about the topic until reading a few posts down.


Personally, I would just switch to Kraken after using TP when Souleater is up (assuming you have a curing party ready), and switch back to whatever other weapon after. I agree Ridill would slow it down.


Also, after using Kraken myself on MNK/NIN with no helping traits, I found that there is in fact an even chance of hitting each amount of times, from 1 to 8. From what I've observed with Mercurial Kris and Ridill, they are 33.33->% each as well.


Edit:

I own Kraken for my WHM >>;


But yeah to confirm:

Instead of "Ocassionally attacks 2-8 times" could as well write "Always attacks 1-8 times" on kraken.


Also dual wielding kraken slows its TP gain down. You might swing faster ONCE but lower your TP 2-8 times. Dont use suppanomimi with an offhand kraken.

TP is gained with single decimal digits stored, so while adding a Dual Wield trait slows down your TP, it slows it down proportionally to how much more speed you get. You only end up losing a TP on one or two of the hits, maybe 3 if you hit 8 times and get the right TP values counting, but you don't lose a TP on all 8 hits.