Hate Loss?

[Nirokun!]

from reading this thread, and thinking about kirin, and soloing (smn) - i would think that kiting effects hate in some form, or maybe distance between yourself and the monster.

For those of you who are familiar with summoner soloing, and understand concepts of hate decay, you know that you can speed up your soloing with bloodpacts, then allow the hate to reset before doing more BPs. I was killing katana WSNM in onzozo - smn/nin to kite the mob, blm/whm (stand at zone, bio2 + nuke and zone hate), rdm/blm (popper) refresher. I brought the crab to the zone, and kited up and down ramp, working it down slowly, and bringing it up to blm @ zone to speed up kill with nukes. I made sure that i summoned near the zone to allow the crab to run up to (me) my carbuncle, so the blm could nuke - this does 2 things: 1) allows carbuncle to go after my target without a hate-creating pet command, and 2) prevents crab from going yellow after blm zones (because smn soloing is so hate-free, you can depop mobs and erase hate easily). Well, the meat of the idea. After killing my pet (used fenrir with refresh for more dmg melee hits), i resummon, but crab is in range to see that rdm casts refresh within range of hate - and goes after the rdm. I release fenrir, summon carby, meteorite without assault (hate spike on carby, smaller spike onto me, which causes carby to auto-assault). blah blah blah you dont care, but hate gets reset after maybe 2nd cast after meteorite.

(I lost my point, had something to do with kiting kirin and hate being funny sometimes, and summoner soloing, but i forgot :X)

[Sylvrdragon]

People often go on about how Throat Stab is hate erase, this isn't the case, its just because it did so much damage (Or so high of a percentage of damage) that the mob immediately turns from you, as you will notice, if you solo a Tonberry and he uses it, he doesn't turn yellow...

This is why I don't freak out when I pull a some hate on most HNMs, because he'll likely just smack me around a couple times and go back to whatever he was doing before. (Its curing yourself up afterward that is the mistake, just use Regen or a couple small cures to get yourself out of the Red, and in case of AOEs, GTFO until you can Regen/Med to full)

Obviously you've never been throat stabbed twice in a duo without cures. If you have, say, 10 HP left and he throat stabs you, it'll do next to no damage, but it still turns away from you to the next highest hated player. Mobs with hate reset moves don't go yellow if you're solo, since there is always that minimal hate still there like the hate you get from resting when someone passes you with a monster. For example, if you're soloing Ullikummi and he Heavy Strikes you (assuming there is no one else in the zone with hate, even those you may have passed when pulling), then he still follows you, instead of going yellow. If he does go yellow, it's due to the natural hate loss problem that statues tend to have when kiting sometimes.

This is a good point, I haven't been Throat stabbed with low health before, I usually toss a couple CureIV on myself after. I stand corrected.

Edit: Oh yeah, about the mob going yellow, I was thinking of Hate reset JAs like Super Jump or Hide which are COMPLETE reset, but apperantly the mob hate reset moves don't lose initial aggro hate.

[Lily]

I just don't think you can remove yourself fully from the hatelist.

I was attempting to solo some korrigans the other day to skill up parry on drg (I was bored and foolish, as I later should have realised). Anyway, I had my npc and wyvern with me. My wyvern died from getting hate over me because I was using a sword. When that happened and it was still high hp, I knew it was going downhill fast. Well, I unlocked, faced away and did super jump. The mandy immediately starts hitting my npc, and I started running. The npc died fast, and it started chasing me, but eventually gave up for whatever reason. So flukey.

Well, I don't know much behind the workings of hate/enmity, but you definitely get a feel for it lvling bst. Can observe a lot of weird stuff happening. Like if the dmg exchange between your pet and the mob is basically very similar, then it's very easy to get hate until after a while. Or if the mob is generally outdmging your pet all the time, it's very risky to do anything at all (using all the mobs around Aquarius to fight it, as compared to a Blood Ball, which are pretty decent on it). Also, like if you use petfood. Usually if you use this after your pet has taken dmg, it seems to make your pet get some hate from what I recall, but *not* if hate from the pet is very established yet, in which case using the JA itself can sometimes get you hate instead. It's funky. Like the hate gradient is much much more sensitive.

As for stoneskin, I am not sure but I wonder if the game sort of treats this like additional hp for this stuff. ;o I say this because if you cast stoneskin, then use spirit link on drg, it uses up that extra 'buffer' before removing your actual hp. Usually it'll totally remove stoneskin and take a bit of hp too.

[loial]

Galka must think alike. I agree with Garret.

Its not a linear relationship. It doesn't appear to be anything similar to "You lose 50 'points' of hate from 500 damage, therefore you lose 100 'points' from 1000 damage."

Speculating any further than that is difficult when its not linear.

[Kaylia]

As soon as you hit the mob, your name is written in the monster's "hate list" as well as your hate level ranging I guess between 1 and a some big number (unless there is a cap). The monster will always hunt whoever has the most hate in the list, and as long 1 person is on it, he won't stop. You can lower your hate to the minimum, but your name will never dissappears unless you:

a) log out from Pol
b) log on a mule
c) logout on pol for a certain amount of time
d) die
e) everyone on the hate list die/zone (if 2 person fight an Aern for example, one zone but the other stay, the person who zoned will still have hate if he come back before the 2nd zone)


Monster can remove you from their hate list under special circumstance like when you walk in water (detect smell), when you're really far or for no apparent reason (probably something about the environement, but it's hard to say what). Monster tend to lose hate more easily too when you have low hate, but it seem different for every mobs.

[Kaylia]

Galka must think alike. I agree with Garret.

Its not a linear relationship. It doesn't appear to be anything similar to "You lose 50 'points' of hate from 500 damage, therefore you lose 100 'points' from 1000 damage."

Speculating any further than that is difficult when its not linear.

It's obviously not linear, but that doesn't mean a linear function can't help us get a really good approximation. What I think is not linear is the amount gained/lost when you have high amount of hate.


The more hate you have, the harder it is probably to gain some and easier it is to lose more. 100 dmg at 0 hate could give for exemple 100 points of hate. But if you have 1000 points of hate already, maybe 100dmg would only give 25. That's why you see hate "peak" that doesn't last long with certain JA

[solsovly]

Hate is also pretty weird when it comes to linking after the depop mpk patch. I was soloing some gobbie pets on my BLM in Bibiki Bay and accidently linked the goblin. I ran to zone it and noticed it stopped even though I wasnt that far away while his pet came chasing after me. Killed the pet while the goblin depopped. Happened again a while later, stopped at the same exact point.

Another strange thing happened there as I accidently ga'd something else while killing the pet. Ran to the zone and zoned out then back in, the goblin pet didn't depop. It started to regen to full health and walked back.

Its really strange to see some actions take hate. I was soloing as a BLM/BST a while ago, forgot I had dinged and went to use a scroll, gained hate from that (like using every other item). Crafting doesn't seem to take hate as I often made juices right next to the mob after my pet enganged (but getting hit/aoed definetly makes you lose your items). While I'm not sure, I've had pets take back hate after swinging at a mob and missing while I kited it around. Not sure if that means I was losing hate faster than my pet and eventually dropped down the list (no -enmity) or if swinging creates that tiny bit of hate.

[Kaylia]

Hate is also pretty weird when it comes to linking after the depop mpk patch. I was soloing some gobbie pets on my BLM in Bibiki Bay and accidently linked the goblin. I ran to zone it and noticed it stopped even though I wasnt that far away while his pet came chasing after me. Killed the pet while the goblin depopped. Happened again a while later, stopped at the same exact point.

Linking doesnt give you any hate, just put you on the hate list, making it easier for mob to desagro. However, if you say they always lose aggro at the same place, it's most likely due to the environement (maybe there is something particular with that place, or maybe it's just a glitch in the algorithm that determine when a mob should desaggro).

Another strange thing happened there as I accidently ga'd something else while killing the pet. Ran to the zone and zoned out then back in, the goblin pet didn't depop. It started to regen to full health and walked back.

Pet always go back to their master if they are alive

[loial]

It depends how "non-linear" that hate is. If its extremely non-linear, then making a linear approximation would be horribly inaccurate. The best you could do is:

Um... yeah... so more provokes, more cures, more damage = more hate. And more damage taken and hate reset = less hate.

That's about it.

Bard songs = hate, yet we don't know how many songs = one provoke.
Nor do we know how much damage = one provoke. Nor can we guess how hate goes down based on your distance from a mob. If you are #2 on the hatelist and use Warcry, the mob will turn to you. However, if you are far away from the mob and use Warcry, it will have no effect. If a WHM with hate on a mob is far enough away from the mob, he can DS Curaga 5 other people with hate and the mob won't come his way.

Doesn't seem like a "linear approximation" could even cut it.

[Khamsin]

I've also noticed releasing an avatar, even one summoned before the mob was engaged and released just after engaging, seems to pull decent hate.

[Kaylia]

I've also noticed releasing an avatar, even one summoned before the mob was engaged and released just after engaging, seems to pull decent hate.

Enough to turn Mammet on you in both Ultima and mammet BC, and make you wipe. >_> I've seen many smn do it, despite of the warning.

[DrObvious]

As soon as you hit the mob, your name is written in the monster's "hate list" as well as your hate level ranging I guess between 1 and a some big number (unless there is a cap). The monster will always hunt whoever has the most hate in the list, and as long 1 person is on it, he won't stop. You can lower your hate to the minimum, but your name will never dissappears unless you:

b) log on a mule

People have tried logging on a mule to clear hate and have claimed that it doesn't.

[DrObvious]

As soon as you hit the mob, your name is written in the monster's "hate list" as well as your hate level ranging I guess between 1 and a some big number (unless there is a cap). The monster will always hunt whoever has the most hate in the list, and as long 1 person is on it, he won't stop. You can lower your hate to the minimum, but your name will never dissappears unless you:

b) log on a mule

People have tried logging on a mule to clear hate and have claimed that it doesn't.

[Kaylia]

[edit]

[Priran]

I've also noticed releasing an avatar, even one summoned before the mob was engaged and released just after engaging, seems to pull decent hate.

Enough to fuck up Mammet BC

you're 3 days late

[Raineer]

bring back the thousands of Prirans

[Kaylia]

I've also noticed releasing an avatar, even one summoned before the mob was engaged and released just after engaging, seems to pull decent hate.

Enough to fuck up Mammet BC

you're 3 days late

Well, i posted it 2 day ago but my post got destroyed by server glitch

[Nirokun!]

I've also noticed releasing an avatar, even one summoned before the mob was engaged and released just after engaging, seems to pull decent hate.

Enough to turn Mammet on you in both Ultima and mammet BC, and make you wipe. >_> I've seen many smn do it, despite of the warning.

it took me a while to grasp what you're talking about, but i figured it out

---
We're assuming, lets say a real situation:
Im in ule[tab] range, at the agloolik camp.

I start my chain by summoning carbuncle, assaulting him on an Agloolik. ("released just after engaging, seems to pull decent hate") I release as soon as carby claims my mob
---

The reason this has so much hate is because the smn is not out of casting range when they release. There is no way (without flee, but even using flee would get you some amount of hate) to claim and release without hate, simply because the summoner is too close to the mob. When soloing, smns assault, then run in the opposite direction, targeting the mob. The correct distance (for normal runspeed mobs) is the distance after you are no longer able to target the mob (no mods), and a few steps after that pet HP disappears offscreen, replaced by just the name of the pet. Take a few steps (3-5) beyond this, and that is the ideal recast range (out of range of hate). The situation you describe involves the summoner being too close to the mob, and resummoning (or not, doesnt matter), and unsuccessful hate-free (almost, 'hate-list' thing you guys are talking about, enough hate to draw it back to smn) pull. Another reason the hate acquired is so great is because it is the first action to pull hate. I'm sure most of you know that there is some added hate for performing the first action that pulls mob attention (any type of aggro, detection or attack).

Summoners need to solo more they'd know this :/

[Khamsin]

I've also noticed releasing an avatar, even one summoned before the mob was engaged and released just after engaging, seems to pull decent hate.

Enough to turn Mammet on you in both Ultima and mammet BC, and make you wipe. >_> I've seen many smn do it, despite of the warning.

it took me a while to grasp what you're talking about, but i figured it out

---
We're assuming, lets say a real situation:
Im in ule[tab] range, at the agloolik camp.

I start my chain by summoning carbuncle, assaulting him on an Agloolik. ("released just after engaging, seems to pull decent hate") I release as soon as carby claims my mob
---

The reason this has so much hate is because the smn is not out of casting range when they release. There is no way (without flee, but even using flee would get you some amount of hate) to claim and release without hate, simply because the summoner is too close to the mob. When soloing, smns assault, then run in the opposite direction, targeting the mob. The correct distance (for normal runspeed mobs) is the distance after you are no longer able to target the mob (no mods), and a few steps after that pet HP disappears offscreen, replaced by just the name of the pet. Take a few steps (3-5) beyond this, and that is the ideal recast range (out of range of hate). The situation you describe involves the summoner being too close to the mob, and resummoning (or not, doesnt matter), and unsuccessful hate-free (almost, 'hate-list' thing you guys are talking about, enough hate to draw it back to smn) pull. Another reason the hate acquired is so great is because it is the first action to pull hate. I'm sure most of you know that there is some added hate for performing the first action that pulls mob attention (any type of aggro, detection or attack).

Summoners need to solo more they'd know this :/

I soloed quite a bit in Uleguerand Range. I went from 74->75 and got 9 merits there (~110k xp total). And never once did I do something as retarded as claim an Agloolik then immediately release. That's not the phenomenon being described.

I'll describe a case in point (other than the well-documented Ultima BC glitch):

Consider the Apollyon with the trees that pop Arboreal _____ (bees, monkeys, beetles, etc.) when they die. I'll have just given the mages Ecliptic Growl on new moon, or maybe I just got done giving the melee Earthen Ward. Or maybe I just finished off the tree with Predator Claws. In any and all cases (either having never touched the melee, or having buffed the melee, or having even killed the mob myself), my avatar will be out when the Arboreal _____ pops. It pops claimed and aggroed to someone other than me (one of the melee).

I will release my avatar after the mob has popped already aggroed to someone else, and it will immediately come running to me until they voke and whack it a couple times.

[Kaylia]

Actually, the situation is slightly difference in those BC. When someone engage mammet without grabbing hate to kite them (that's what ppl often do in CoP2-3 and omega BC), every monsters will add everyone to the hate list with "0" hate (like darter kinda).

You could cure bomb the tank who aggroed them without ever turning the mob away since you're not curing someone who has hate, he is just on the hate list with 0 hate as long he doesn't take any action that would claim the monster (or get hate like resting).

Unlike every other JA or spell (flee, warcry...etc) or magic (cure, summoning, brd song), the summoner will get real hate the moment he releases his avatar. We had a pld hold 2 mammet once, and when the smn released its summon, both ran toward him for a quick rape. Same thing happen against mammet in Ultima BC when a smn release his summon.

I don't think this behavior is normal since nothing else give that kind of hate beside resting.