Defending Ring

[Stilgar]

Oh, the irony in Kiro's sig.

[Raineh]

All these arguments about Koenig and it's not even used as much as it used to be anymore with the recent perfection of PLD/NIN.

I've seen a lot of both in action over the course of about 2 years in end game, and I've tanked beside both on a lot of HNMs, and I have to admit that really PLD/NIN owns PLD/WAR on almost everything. Even the PLDs themselves I know of admit to this being true, the hate far surpasses the hate from /WAR and it's a lot easier on MP and just the fight overall. A good PLD/NIN setup doesn't use any Koenig, either. I don't think we even use PLD/WAR anymore outside of Dragon's Aery as far as endgame events go, we've even successfully use PLD/NIN in sky. So in the end, what are all these arguments about it for?

Btw, just to add to the drama this may or may not start, I'm a 75 NIN with a level 1 PLD (oh, and no Koenig!) and I have a Defending Ring. As much as I didn't agree with it at the time, I was asked to lot it over PLDs by leaders and LS members for how often I tank in the LS. At this point though since we almost exclusively use PLD/NIN as opposed to PLD/WAR, it wouldn't really be used much more than it is by me by PLDs anyway so it doesn't bother me as much now.

Really in the end, whether they're a NIN or PLD or WAR or whatever kind of tank, it shouldn't matter much what job you are and how much Koenig you have, IMO it should be more about your dedication and commitment you put in the LS. This was said to me by an LS member when I didn't like the idea of lotting it, and since then I've thought of it that way and believe it to be the best view.

Less forum post! More LJ post!
kktnx

[Maguspk]

Maguspk, Lockecole:

You completely missed the point. Full Koenig doesn't mean much. Sure, if the guy had 0 Koenig, and got a defending ring, that's one thing. That means he's never even picked up the "throw-away" M. Abj in sky yet. However, there was another case earlier in the thread when someone said "some newbie didn't even have full Koenig and got a defending ring" or something along those lines.

All I'm saying, people put too much value on "full Koenig," much more than its worth. Some of the pieces have great numbers, but there is no replacement for skilled LS members. I've seen the damage a full koenig PLD takes vs. a PLD in just the head/hands. The difference is not as big as some people like to make it out to be. If it just so happens that the PLD that does the most for the LS is also the one in full Koenig, then it works out nicely. That isn't necessarily always the case.

Decking out your "full Koenig PLD" leaves your LS sitting on its thumbs when that PLD isn't around. Seems a bit silly. Since apparently you value your "decked out PLD" so much, your LS must've done this because you feel you can't fight harder mobs unless you have your full Koenig PLD.

What is funny is how many LS spend so much time camping Kings, that they are lulled into fighting such easy mobs. Then they take their full Koenig PLDs to fight much harder mobs and their LS wipes repeatedly because they are used to the very tame kings.

I still stand by my original statement:

I can only think of 1 or 2 pieces of gear that actually have a profound effect on a LS's ability to kill end-game mobs. Koenig/D.Ring are not on that list.

The rest is about strategy.

It's funny, you can argue about how skill means so much, but better gear makes better skill more apparent and for the most part, the job easier. And having "full koenig" displays your skill, if anything it's a sign of status, of your time spent and your endeavors. The full set itself may be overrated in your opinion, and "skill" may be so much more important, but the fact still stands that the people with full koenig usually are the more skilled and arguing that skill > koenig is like trying to argue for some crappy ls who doesn't have any koenig but claims they have so much skill.

Oh ya and fyi, you can't tell Lockecole and I that our paladins are getting "lulled into fighting easy mobs". Who the fuck do you think you are? We both are from the strongest HNM lses on our servers, we are the ones who probably killed these "easy mobs" to get you guys your strats to copy, and we're also probably the ones who've killed the harder ones so you could get your strat.

[Tom Chambers]

You must be pretty cool to achieve all that.

[Faris]

Koenig is doesnt give u any skills sorry

i seen people tank better w/o it, and do a better job than ppl who do have it.

yes koenig does make tanking easier. but also if u have the set, and ur willing to use, u need to spend more money on enmity Gear, since u gona lose so much replacing Koenig w/ AF.

to me, Koenig is just another way of setting ur gear. its not gona change anything about the way u tank.

Koenig is E-peen. and its worth it

[Raineer]

Generalization:

People with koenig tend to be better skilled than people without (even if they don't wear it), which is the point they are trying to make.

[Demosthenes11]

All these arguments about Koenig and it's not even used as much as it used to be anymore with the recent perfection of PLD/NIN.

I've seen a lot of both in action over the course of about 2 years in end game, and I've tanked beside both on a lot of HNMs, and I have to admit that really PLD/NIN owns PLD/WAR on almost everything. Even the PLDs themselves I know of admit to this being true, the hate far surpasses the hate from /WAR and it's a lot easier on MP and just the fight overall. A good PLD/NIN setup doesn't use any Koenig, either. I don't think we even use PLD/WAR anymore outside of Dragon's Aery as far as endgame events go, we've even successfully use PLD/NIN in sky. So in the end, what are all these arguments about it for?

Btw, just to add to the drama this may or may not start, I'm a 75 NIN with a level 1 PLD (oh, and no Koenig!) and I have a Defending Ring. As much as I didn't agree with it at the time, I was asked to lot it over PLDs by leaders and LS members for how often I tank in the LS. At this point though since we almost exclusively use PLD/NIN as opposed to PLD/WAR, it wouldn't really be used much more than it is by me by PLDs anyway so it doesn't bother me as much now.

Really in the end, whether they're a NIN or PLD or WAR or whatever kind of tank, it shouldn't matter much what job you are and how much Koenig you have, IMO it should be more about your dedication and commitment you put in the LS. This was said to me by an LS member when I didn't like the idea of lotting it, and since then I've thought of it that way and believe it to be the best view.

Bolded the wtf statement I see. If they are using less mp, then they are not gaining as much hate, not to mention shadows reduce hate. If they have no voke and are using less mp and are not getting hit, how the hell are they raping pld/war hate? Unless you are fighting something like Roc(lol), I really don't see swords being any kind of hate taker, not to mention should be using koenig shield if using a sword even if /nin. Maybe I'm missing something, but where the hell is the extra hate coming from here?

[aurik]

Losing a shadow is a fuckload less hate lost than losing 30% of your health.

[Dezzimal]

Losing a shadow is a fuckload less hate lost than losing 30% of your health.

PLD/NIN or PLD/WAR + AA rotation ftw then.

[Lockecole]

Maguspk, Lockecole:

You completely missed the point. Full Koenig doesn't mean much. Sure, if the guy had 0 Koenig, and got a defending ring, that's one thing. That means he's never even picked up the "throw-away" M. Abj in sky yet. However, there was another case earlier in the thread when someone said "some newbie didn't even have full Koenig and got a defending ring" or something along those lines.

All I'm saying, people put too much value on "full Koenig," much more than its worth. Some of the pieces have great numbers, but there is no replacement for skilled LS members. I've seen the damage a full koenig PLD takes vs. a PLD in just the head/hands. The difference is not as big as some people like to make it out to be. If it just so happens that the PLD that does the most for the LS is also the one in full Koenig, then it works out nicely. That isn't necessarily always the case.

Decking out your "full Koenig PLD" leaves your LS sitting on its thumbs when that PLD isn't around. Seems a bit silly. Since apparently you value your "decked out PLD" so much, your LS must've done this because you feel you can't fight harder mobs unless you have your full Koenig PLD.

What is funny is how many LS spend so much time camping Kings, that they are lulled into fighting such easy mobs. Then they take their full Koenig PLDs to fight much harder mobs and their LS wipes repeatedly because they are used to the very tame kings.

I still stand by my original statement:

I can only think of 1 or 2 pieces of gear that actually have a profound effect on a LS's ability to kill end-game mobs. Koenig/D.Ring are not on that list.

The rest is about strategy.

Full Koenig was representing moreso how much that tank has been dedicated to the LS, not that Koenig is such an amazing set of armour. I know for a fact that the most decked out tanks in my LS, are logically the two-three most active tanks in our LS. It just makes sense to do that. I dont care how many points someone has built up, if you're not maintanking 90% of the mobs we fight, you're in the back of the line for gear. There's a reason my LS has accomplished the things it has with the ease that it has, and strategy will only get you so far. Face it or not but gear does make a significant difference in the game, and when your whole alliance doesnt have its head up its ass regarding what gear they should be wearing, it shows.

Update: PLD/NIN owns PLD/WAR on EVERY level, its not even funny. I can't think of a single instance that /WAR holds hate better. Not on Cerb, not on Fafhogg, not on Bahamut. Vrtra, KB are the only two fights we sub /WAR on, and thats because of kiting and AOEs (Vrtra) making shadows pretty pointless.

[epigram]

Full Koenig means that you have the best bot on the server, or at least good enough. It means nothing more than that.

Dedication and all this other bull shit you keep spewing mean nothing if you can't get a claim. There are many many excellent pld on all servers that only have sky koenig, they work very hard and they don't bot, so they don't do Kings. Gear does not equal skill, and gear is bounded by accessibility for many players because of other players.

[Smartdrv]

Was me I think who said "the noobie JP PLD with no Koenig"

The post had nothing to do with "omg Koenig is everything", I think my first Fafnir I only had the head. And I've done a lot of tanking before I had the body or the other two pieces. And yes frequently enough I dont use the head or hands.

On Lakshmi for NA's there are 3 of us with 5/5 Completed (was 4 but one quit), and I'm thinking 6-7 with 4/5 completed if that gives any indication of rarity here. To actually be able to get the claim on the kings (over the JP's, NA's, RMT, Botters) AND have the required pieces you need drop shows a lot of work and effort (well there was one person who got lucky and got body/feet in the same day but still). I know it took over a year for the 3 of us to aquire our full sets. IMO its a better "effort/status" indicator than AF2/Shadow stuff because at least with Dynamis you are guaranteed entry twice a week and in theory you could Zerg DL every single time if you like.

The Point was, I think it is pretty messed up that someone just starting in HNMs (new enough to the point that he hasn't done any sky stuff even) gets the Defending Ring before a senior paladin in a shell like TFA or SnD or one of the other Paladins I've mentioned above that have been actively doing HNMs every day for many many months. And to the above poster who says its in indicator of your bots you have missed the point. If your ass has been in Behemoth's Dominion almost every day for a year then yeah you probably deserve it like those who have the full Koenig sets. But if this is the first time you've ever showed up to an HNM camp and you get it it is pretty buggered up.

[epigram]

So standing around in DA waiting for your bot to claim is hard work? Lol what work? It means you have a lot of free time to stand around in DA and let your BOT claim.

It doesn't show hard work, it doesn't show skill, it doesn't require anything but killing the same NM for a year or so.

It's all about the better BOT and luck. The more free time you have the better chance you will get a D. ring etc... There is still no skill, it just means you have a lot of time to burn.

[draxyl]

I <3 when other players cast their negativity onto how others choose to experience their time in this game.

You don't like 3 kings camping, we get it. Other folks like the fights, loot, and drama thats associated with camping 3 kings so we still do it. While this is an open forum and you're certainly welcome to your opinion, don't look down your nose too hard on other players for enjoying a part of the game you don't.

btw, if someone has uber bot please PM.

[Miruka]

the hate far surpasses the hate from /WAR and it's a lot easier on MP and just the fight overall.

Bolded the wtf statement I see. If they are using less mp, then they are not gaining as much hate, not to mention shadows reduce hate. If they have no voke and are using less mp and are not getting hit, how the hell are they raping pld/war hate?

Easier on outside MP, obviously. I would assume it would take a little bit more time (although... probably not that much more at all) to cement target, but I'm also assuming PLD/NINs constantly spend MP on themselves, the target, and others so that others don't have to use it as often. And don't get hit, which is the major cause of hate loss and uh, dying.

Anyone else want to say that Koenig sucks so I feel a bit more reassured in my thinking so? Don't take my word for it, since I really only have second-hand accounts, but it sure seems to me Koenig has lost any practical usefulness - besides expensive town gear lolz! - now the equipment is largely not only harder to get but not used if LSes bother to use the (apparently) vastly superior PLD/NIN tanks instead. It seems the entire set of equipment (almost) for LSes that make the effort to change tanks doesn't drop off stupid NQs/HQs plagued by botters and whatnot. Limited hate tools and getting hit sucks for holding target, NIN/DRKs and PLD/NINs onry please.

And if all the above is true, tada everyone! Our first phased out Zilart gear. Rejoice, for now we can stop complaining about item progression in endgame, YAY!

[Raineer]

Anyone else want to say that Koenig sucks so I feel a bit more reassured in my thinking so? Don't take my word for it, since I really only have second-hand accounts, but it sure seems to me Koenig has lost any practical usefulness - besides expensive town gear lolz! - now the equipment is largely not only harder to get but not used if LSes bother to use the (apparently) vastly superior PLD/NIN tanks instead. It seems the entire set of equipment (almost) for LSes that make the effort to change tanks doesn't drop off stupid NQs/HQs plagued by botters and whatnot. Limited hate tools and getting hit sucks for holding target, NIN/DRKs and PLD/NINs onry please.

I wouldn't say "Koenig sucks" but it's definately limited in usefulness anymore, as people have just found more effective ways to get shit done. Koenig works on mobs where you are just going to get hit, and there isn't shit you can do about it, and that damage needs to be minimized.

Koenig is still more effective than the idiot tanks that put +40hp in every single slot, choosing to tank with 1900hp and +2 enmity (wow omg epeen) and not being able to peel mobs off mages (that's what ES sleep is for).

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I don't suppose anyone minds explaining the intracases of PLD/NIN? I have tried it myself and I don't think I held more hate. I had march & haste on, wore tons of enmity gear, plus some MP gear. Cured other people etc. I'm assuming it works like NIN/DRK except your trying to get your flash timer down, not stun?

/em waits for gtfo nub.

[Lockecole]

I don't suppose anyone minds explaining the intracases of PLD/NIN? I have tried it myself and I don't think I held more hate. I had march & haste on, wore tons of enmity gear, plus some MP gear. Cured other people etc. I'm assuming it works like NIN/DRK except your trying to get your flash timer down, not stun?

/em waits for gtfo nub.

Umm you're a NIN (practically) with 300MP+ to cure your alliance, Flash to blind a mob and cause immense hate, the best 2hour in the game that can save your alliance at any instance, and massive hate JAs. I will say this PLD/NIN works best in pairs though, and especially pairs that work very well together, matching enmity gear and hate. If you're PLD/NIN it's very hard to have sole hate and not fall back on Utsusemi timers or find yourself unable to get an Ichi off. Definately need 2 (or in Tiamats case) sometimes 3 tanks to REALLY shine. Toss a BRD/NIN in there, watch a mob swing at nothing 95% of the fight.

[MisterBob]

PLD/NIN + NIN/WAR is also a pretty nice combo. NIN/WAR can pretty much serve as backup for the PLD when they cannot get shadows up.

[loial]

And having "full koenig" displays your skill, if anything it's a sign of status, of your time spent and your endeavors.

No, it displays the reliability of an LS's bot.

The fact still stands that the people with full koenig usually are the more skilled

Really? Is that a fact? I missed the memo. You know, someone might have killed 1 million rarabs. Does that make him a skilled player?
Its funny that asshat LSs can take down kings with ease(**see subsequent post on what I meant by ease**) and that somehow, in your eyes, equates to skill.

and arguing that skill > koenig is like trying to argue for some crappy ls who doesn't have any koenig but claims they have so much skill.

It is just the sad truth though. There is nothing a full Koenig PLD can tank that a non-full Koenig PLD can't tank. So, who feels the fool now?

Who the fuck do you think you are? We both are from the strongest HNM lses on our servers, we are the ones who probably killed these "easy mobs" to get you guys your strats to copy, and we're also probably the ones who've killed the harder ones so you could get your strat.

Sorry, I'm not aware of who you are. I guess your copy of "HNM strats for dummies: The latent effect of skill+100 on full Koenig and you - by Magus" was also lost with that memo. Using your "trump card" just makes you sound more ridiculous.

You want to say that YOU are a skilled player? That's your business. You want to assume that since some PLD got a defending ring without having full Koenig makes him lesser than you? That's just asinine.

Edit: see below definition of ease