Defending Ring

[Raineer]

Its funny that asshat LSs can take down kings with ease and that somehow, in your eyes, equates to skill.

"Taking down kings easily" does actually equate to skill, asshats or not.

True, KB is a kite fest and lolaspid, but if you're killing kings "easily", you're good.

[Dezzimal]

Its funny that asshat LSs can take down kings with ease and that somehow, in your eyes, equates to skill.

"Taking down kings easily" does actually equate to not being retarded, asshats or not.

True, KB is a kite fest and lolaspid, but if you're killing kings "easily", you're not retarded.

Fixed for truth. If your people who have never fought a king before can't follow simple directions its time for you to /breaklinkshell.

[loial]

"Ease" was for extra emphasis and possible not the best term to use.

Every server has them. The LSs that have no problems "claiming" kings, yet always have lots of people dying, accepting chainspell Raise1s and have a good chance of wiping/CFHing. Otherwise, they win just under the rage timer.

However, then they take on anything slightly more difficult than kings and barely dent the mob's HP, wipe repeatedly... and repeatedly more... all while brandishing their full Koenig PLDs So, they come back the next day and kill a Fafnir (again, just under the rage timer) to feel better about themselves.

So, "Ease" was in relation to how they handle harder HNMs.

[epigram]

<3 when other players cast their negativity onto how others choose to experience their time in this game.

You don't like 3 kings camping, we get it. Other folks like the fights, loot, and drama thats associated with camping 3 kings so we still do it. While this is an open forum and you're certainly welcome to your opinion, don't look down your nose too hard on other players for enjoying a part of the game you don't.

btw, if someone has uber bot please PM.

That wasn't even the point. The claim was that it requires a lot of dedication to get full koenig and that implied that it would a tragedy if someone without full koenig happened to attain one. I find that the definition of dedication and the entire argument to be quite lacking.

I understand dedication as hard work and vigor towards an end. I don't consider botting hnm hard work and dedication when you have already trivialized it by cheating. Now if you don't bot then I can respect your hard work and tenacity against those who cheat to aquire your desired items. However, I know of very few HNMls's that don't bot, so the statement "camping hnm" almost implicitly means "cheating at ffxi through the use of a bot to get an hnm."

Now, not everyone does kings, but sometimes after a server reset, etc... there may be a chance for a non-king focused ls to get a shot at one. If a pld gets a D. ring on his first and maybe only KB, then I don't think you can characterize him or her as undeserving at the least bit since they very well may strive to be the best tank they can and have put countless hours to that end, but see kings as an un-dependable and un-rewarding activities for their ls, particularly if they don't cheat.

In conclusion I have nothing against camping the three kings. I personally think it's a waste of time and you will pretty much never see me camping them under the current system. These NM's are not difficult, sky NM are actually more challenging. The only difficulty is claiming, and if you remove that difficulty by cheating through Bots then I fail to see how someone can claim any form of hard work or dedication when you have cast away any legitimate work. So the claim that full koenig somehow implies hardwork and dedication is invalid if the method of obtaining the items was done by cheating. Nor does the claim consider the likelihood that there are many PLD that work very hard to perfect their skilsl through legitimate channels, and if they somehow get the ring on a lucky shot they are as deserving as many others, and considerably more deserving than those who cheat.

[RKenshin]

Miruka corrected me on what I meant.

I did not mean that PLD themself uses less MP, I meant that the alliance all together (or the out PT WHMs or whatever you have setup that floats your boat) will spend less MP healing that tank, and just healing all together.

PLD/NIN operates using a good mix of Enmity, Haste, and MP gear all together to give them a large amount of each. I would say that as far as importance goes it's Haste > Enmity > MP. MP can always be regenerated, and with items like Valor Surcoat and Etherinal Earring MP is rarely a problem coupled with a decent amount of outside Refresh. Haste is also important to avoid taking damage and to spam Flash, just like for NIN/DRK where spamming Stun as much as possible regardless of Enmity will generate the most hate it works similiar for PLD. This is all based on my observations and my opinion though, it may change from tank to tank.

The PLD basically will spam all their JAs along with Flash at every opportunity (recast can easily hit the 23 second cap), and also spam cures (Cure IVs giving the most hate where possible) on himself and anyone in the alliance that takes damage (with wing or whatever). In the case where there's no one to cure, then adding on a good deal of HP gear (omg a use for koenig maybe!?) and then curing yourself, and returning back to normal gear also works fine.

The hate generated from above far surpasses any PLD/WAR setup I know of or have ever seen when combined with effective Utsusemi tanking.

It's also a pretty easy setup to equip. It mostly just requires AF(+1 if desired) , AF2, and Homan. Nothing compared to how complicated and hard to get PLD/WAR equipment sets can be.

[Demosthenes11]

I don't suppose anyone minds explaining the intracases of PLD/NIN? I have tried it myself and I don't think I held more hate. I had march & haste on, wore tons of enmity gear, plus some MP gear. Cured other people etc. I'm assuming it works like NIN/DRK except your trying to get your flash timer down, not stun?

/em waits for gtfo nub.

Umm you're a NIN (practically) with 300MP+ to cure your alliance, Flash to blind a mob and cause immense hate, the best 2hour in the game that can save your alliance at any instance, and massive hate JAs. I will say this PLD/NIN works best in pairs though, and especially pairs that work very well together, matching enmity gear and hate. If you're PLD/NIN it's very hard to have sole hate and not fall back on Utsusemi timers or find yourself unable to get an Ichi off. Definately need 2 (or in Tiamats case) sometimes 3 tanks to REALLY shine. Toss a BRD/NIN in there, watch a mob swing at nothing 95% of the fight.

I kind of understand what you are saying, but couldn't 2 of those 3 spots pld/nin would take be used toward better things? Toss in 2 more blms and suddenly fight time is down 10%. I see pld/nin is very good in specific situations, but for single hate pld/war seems like it dominates pld/nin. If it takes 3 of them to make it good, I really don't see the appeal

[Asy]

I don't suppose anyone minds explaining the intracases of PLD/NIN? I have tried it myself and I don't think I held more hate. I had march & haste on, wore tons of enmity gear, plus some MP gear. Cured other people etc. I'm assuming it works like NIN/DRK except your trying to get your flash timer down, not stun?

/em waits for gtfo nub.

Umm you're a NIN (practically) with 300MP+ to cure your alliance, Flash to blind a mob and cause immense hate, the best 2hour in the game that can save your alliance at any instance, and massive hate JAs. I will say this PLD/NIN works best in pairs though, and especially pairs that work very well together, matching enmity gear and hate. If you're PLD/NIN it's very hard to have sole hate and not fall back on Utsusemi timers or find yourself unable to get an Ichi off. Definately need 2 (or in Tiamats case) sometimes 3 tanks to REALLY shine. Toss a BRD/NIN in there, watch a mob swing at nothing 95% of the fight.

I kind of understand what you are saying, but couldn't 2 of those 3 spots pld/nin would take be used toward better things? Toss in 2 more blms and suddenly fight time is down 10%. I see pld/nin is very good in specific situations, but for single hate pld/war seems like it dominates pld/nin. If it takes 3 of them to make it good, I really don't see the appeal

Toss in 2 Blms, lose 2 tanks, get triple roared. Watching a good pld/nin at work is amazing. Such a busy job, though.

[layoneil]

but for single hate pld/war seems like it dominates pld/nin.

what HNM has "single hate"?

we use 2-3 tanks for everything that's considered an HNM these days.

[Dezzimal]

The hate generated from above far surpasses any PLD/WAR setup I know of or have ever seen when combined with effective Utsusemi tanking.

I disagree with this slightly, from what I've seen PLD/NIN does really well in the long game, which is where it really counts. If you fuck up and die PLD/WAR tends to get hate back faster if you don't count invincible.

The big selling point of PLD/NIN is reduction in hate loss, not increase in hate gain. 1 Shadow is a TON less hate loss than getting bitchslapped for 700 dmg during tiamat's mighty strikes. Nearly the same effect is achieved with aerial armor rotations.

[Raineer]

I don't suppose anyone minds explaining the intracases of PLD/NIN? I have tried it myself and I don't think I held more hate. I had march & haste on, wore tons of enmity gear, plus some MP gear. Cured other people etc. I'm assuming it works like NIN/DRK except your trying to get your flash timer down, not stun?

/em waits for gtfo nub.

Umm you're a NIN (practically) with 300MP+ to cure your alliance, Flash to blind a mob and cause immense hate, the best 2hour in the game that can save your alliance at any instance, and massive hate JAs. I will say this PLD/NIN works best in pairs though, and especially pairs that work very well together, matching enmity gear and hate. If you're PLD/NIN it's very hard to have sole hate and not fall back on Utsusemi timers or find yourself unable to get an Ichi off. Definately need 2 (or in Tiamats case) sometimes 3 tanks to REALLY shine. Toss a BRD/NIN in there, watch a mob swing at nothing 95% of the fight.

I kind of understand what you are saying, but couldn't 2 of those 3 spots pld/nin would take be used toward better things? Toss in 2 more blms and suddenly fight time is down 10%. I see pld/nin is very good in specific situations, but for single hate pld/war seems like it dominates pld/nin. If it takes 3 of them to make it good, I really don't see the appeal

Because 2 or 3 good PLD/NIN (3 is overkill really, except on Tiamat), makes tanking perfect, provides the ultimate safety and ultimate hate-holding on the mob. PLD/WAR requires curing and AA, PLD/NIN can be almost completely self-sufficient, sometimes bordering on taking too little damage.

[Asy]

The hate generated from above far surpasses any PLD/WAR setup I know of or have ever seen when combined with effective Utsusemi tanking.

I disagree with this slightly, from what I've seen PLD/NIN does really well in the long game, which is where it really counts. If you fuck up and die PLD/WAR tends to get hate back faster if you don't count invincible.

This is the beauty of 2-3 Pld/Nins, if something such as this does happen, it just moves onto the next while the Pld who lost hate rests up, and rebuilds. I'm normally always in the tank party on Bard, so I get to watch them all at work. It's just so efficient, and well done. It surprises me Pld/Nin wasn't as popular before.

The big selling point of PLD/NIN is reduction in hate loss, not increase in hate gain. 1 Shadow is a TON less hate loss than getting bitchslapped for 700 dmg during tiamat's mighty strikes. Nearly the same effect is achieved with aerial armor rotations.

Don't forget about decreased hate on your healers. As well as MP efficiency is something does fuck up.

[Miruka]

From what I hear, it's selling point is that its just that much more efficient. We all know endgame post-CoP is flooded with stuff that you generally don't want to get touched by (let alone, for example, mightystrikedoubleattack'd), and you can answer that with multiple healers, an semi-reliable Aerial Armor rotation, and enough refresh (in TWO parties) for all that to sustain itself... or one PLD/NIN tank party that basically covers the same task.

I sure have a lot of second-hand information...

[Asy]

http://i5.tinypic.com/14liyw8.jpg


Rofl...


How can people still be this dumb

[½pint]

I kind of understand what you are saying, but couldn't 2 of those 3 spots pld/nin would take be used toward better things? Toss in 2 more blms and suddenly fight time is down 10%. I see pld/nin is very good in specific situations, but for single hate pld/war seems like it dominates pld/nin. If it takes 3 of them to make it good, I really don't see the appeal

Maybe you shouldn't be in this argument considering you have never been in a proper HNM shell that would fight things like Tiamat? Not meant to be a personal attack (although I guess it is) but you can't argue for something if you don't know what you are arguing for...
Lockecole on the other hand knows exactly what he is talking about.

[Maguspk]

"Ease" was for extra emphasis and possible not the best term to use.

Every server has them. The LSs that have no problems "claiming" kings, yet always have lots of people dying, accepting chainspell Raise1s and have a good chance of wiping/CFHing. Otherwise, they win just under the rage timer.

However, then they take on anything slightly more difficult than kings and barely dent the mob's HP, wipe repeatedly... and repeatedly more... all while brandishing their full Koenig PLDs So, they come back the next day and kill a Fafnir (again, just under the rage timer) to feel better about themselves.

So, "Ease" was in relation to how they handle harder HNMs.

For one, most of my LSes Koenig and past koenig was obtained before anyone even camped Kings, it was just my LS. We were the precursors for the entire server really, and got shit done on a scale that nobody has or ever will on our server. To claim that having koenig simply means you have a better bot is totally wrong, and especially wrong for any LS like mine who's been doing kings since before there was competition. For example:

For many months FA used to camp Fafnir/Nidhogg totally uncontested because we would kill it at 6pm est everyday. We'd sit at the entrance of Dragon's Aery and wait for it to pop then run in around 6 to kill and be sure it popped at 3-6 the next day. We even had kills that were under 20 minutes often.

Now I'm not trying to brag, but you've brought me to this level since you think in order to undermine my posts you have to call me unskilled or my tanks with Koenig unskilled. Simply put, you're a retard who sounds like someone bitter from joining the HNM drama when everybody and their brother has a 75 job. You probably never got to kill kings without competition and get koenig simply as a result of hard work and time dedicated (like we did). And to make a huge generalization like you've been doing, in assuming that every LS has had to deal with 200+ people in Aery is totally wrong.

Also I can say we kill stuff with ease, not because our tanks have Koenig, but from experience. And no we don't have "no problems claiming", in fact we haven't claimed a Fafhogg in a long while because we don't bot and we have to spam macros like the rest of the honest LSes out there. And as for your comment about wiping to stuff harder than kings, you're very wrong, everybody comes close to wiping on their first thing harder than a King. I remember the first few Tiamats we did, we would constantly get it to about 20% and get locked in a standstill; we wiped maybe twice, due to a Flail or something sometimes though. Mind you, this was before anyone had a strat for Tiamat and we'd tank it just like Fafhogg, with everyone on it's feet. We finally got our first kill on Tiamat, also the first on the server and the first across alot of servers for NA's, and we got 3-4 more kills using this method of fighting it on it's feet.

Like I said, you just sound bitter from doing Kings with so much competition that you are ready to cry. Go in a corner and cry alone, but don't try to talk down other lses and their acheivments (i.e. Koenig, Abjurations, and other sought after equipment) simply because you don't have it or your linkshell can't get it.

As for the PLD/NIN thing, my LS uses PLD/WAR alot of the time now because the few times we have tried PLD/NIN we continually lose hate, mostly because our DD's are too powerful to not pull hate. And with our current alliance setup we have basically relied on the fast hate building ability of PLD/WAR. PLD/NIN can't rebuild hate as quickly from what I've seen, so PLD/WAR is what we use simply because our DD's pull hate often.

[Koyangi]

Now I'm not trying to brag, but you've brought me to this level since you think in order to undermine my posts you have to call me unskilled or my tanks with Koenig unskilled. Simply put, you're a retard who sounds like someone bitter from joining the HNM drama when everybody and their brother has a 75 job. You probably never got to kill kings without competition and get koenig simply as a result of hard work and time dedicated (like we did). And to make a huge generalization like you've been doing, in assuming that every LS has had to deal with 200+ people in Aery is totally wrong.

You were just in a very lucky server to have pops like that practically sitting there for you, ever since Siren has started camping the kings, there has and always will be competition. A lot of these shells, even the longest lasting 1's on Siren (NA) didn't get their practice in pulls and getting good drops as easy as you said it, it came through lots of time, pulling _maybe_ 1 faf a week or if you're lucky once a month, I can honestly say that when IN (Alaris) and/or TMO camped these way back in the day, the Jp pulled 9/10 of all pops. The only freebies anyone has ever gotten _might_ have been server resets, but I know Locke can testify to the day after day of camps seeing the same 1 or 2 JP links pull the same mob while we* just watch.

* the NA camping, Alaris and/or TMO.

[Demosthenes11]

I kind of understand what you are saying, but couldn't 2 of those 3 spots pld/nin would take be used toward better things? Toss in 2 more blms and suddenly fight time is down 10%. I see pld/nin is very good in specific situations, but for single hate pld/war seems like it dominates pld/nin. If it takes 3 of them to make it good, I really don't see the appeal

Maybe you shouldn't be in this argument considering you have never been in a proper HNM shell that would fight things like Tiamat? Not meant to be a personal attack (although I guess it is) but you can't argue for something if you don't know what you are arguing for...
Lockecole on the other hand knows exactly what he is talking about.

I have killed Tiamat...I even have title...I have also watched several different ls's tank it, and I have seen both pld/nin and pld/war. Perhaps its just the power of the different ls's, but the fights I have seen with pld/war have typically gone smoother, so maybe I'm just going off of personal experience I dunno. pld/nin does not have a huge hate spike like pld/war does, so I guess that is what my argument is.

[Tyche]

As for the PLD/NIN thing, my LS uses PLD/WAR alot of the time now because the few times we have tried PLD/NIN we continually lose hate, mostly because our DD's are too powerful to not pull hate. And with our current alliance setup we have basically relied on the fast hate building ability of PLD/WAR. PLD/NIN can't rebuild hate as quickly from what I've seen, so PLD/WAR is what we use simply because our DD's pull hate often.

I hope your LS's PLD's weren't wearng that aforementioned koenig when tanking with NIN sub, cuz thats kind of silly. Our LS uses PLD/NIN for stuff, it's either NIN/WAR or PLD/NIN, and most all of our BLM and DD are fully meritted with the best of the best gear. Our PLDs don't have a lot of trouble keeping hate. I'll agree, however, that getting hate back after dying/roared can be a little tricky.

Edit: One specific instance of this was when we did bahamut v.2. We used 3 tanks, a NIN/WAR to main tank (solo), and 2PLD/NINs to support tank if the NIN should die or whatever. NIN/WAR did end up dying around 20% and PLD/NIN had a HELL of a time getting hate secured off the BLMs. Came out with a win, but it was wild for a couple mins. Like ppl said, it works better in teams.

[Raineer]

As for the PLD/NIN thing, my LS uses PLD/WAR alot of the time now because the few times we have tried PLD/NIN we continually lose hate, mostly because our DD's are too powerful to not pull hate. And with our current alliance setup we have basically relied on the fast hate building ability of PLD/WAR. PLD/NIN can't rebuild hate as quickly from what I've seen, so PLD/WAR is what we use simply because our DD's pull hate often.

I hope your LS's PLD's weren't wearng that aforementioned koenig when tanking with NIN sub, cuz thats kind of silly. Our LS uses PLD/NIN for stuff, it's either NIN/WAR or PLD/NIN, and most all of our BLM and DD are fully meritted with the best of the best gear. Our PLDs don't have a lot of trouble keeping hate. I'll agree, however, that getting hate back after dying/roared can be a little tricky.

Edit: One specific instance of this was when we did bahamut v.2. We used 3 tanks, a NIN/WAR to main tank (solo), and 2PLD/NINs to support tank if the NIN should die or whatever. NIN/WAR did end up dying around 20% and PLD/NIN had a HELL of a time getting hate secured off the BLMs. Like ppl said, it works better in teams.

But that's the beauty of it, you have 3 tanks. A triple roar is pretty fucking unheard of at tiamat (loljorm), and if by some chance it did happen, you just have one of your 3 pld's burn their 2hr and go on with life, enjoying the smooth fight again.

[Tyche]

Oh i agree, we've done a ton of tiamats using PLD/NIN. Having three pld/nin makes it a load easier on the tank who gets roared. Two PLD/NINs have no problem blinking for the couple minutes it takes to get hate built back up. Once he flies, getting hate as PLD/NIN gets incredibly easy, especially when all your PLDs (cept 1 >.>) have AF2 body. Just trying to point out to the Maguspk that PLD/NIN is capable of holding hate as good a PLD/WAR, but PLD/NIN takes a little practice if your tanks aren't accustomned to using it. PLD/NIN is an art.