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Thread: Dual Wield and Haste     submit to reddit submit to twitter submit to tumblr

  1. #1
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    Dual Wield and Haste

    I've seen a lot of people comparing DW bonus to haste. Or adding them together. I did a few tests. I'm lacking af2 pants so it was hard to get anything too definitive. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed or tested in the past the difference between haste and DW bonus effecting swing speeds. I tested it a few times, it seems that haste effects the delay after DW is taken into account. It seems like a no brainer. If that's true then.. DW bonus stacked with haste is more optent then haste by it's own.

    Example:

    As a standard for the tests I used 2x227 Katanas + 30% DW bonus testing in balista with a friend (no DA).

    ::10% DW gear, No haste::
    (227+227)*.6=272.4
    This was accurate. I believe the assumption of 5% DW bonus on gear is sound. The belt of course being left out.

    After 10m of straight attacks, we counted 130 vollys.

    ::10% DW gear, 10% haste::
    [(227+227)*.6].9=245.16
    Now the debate. If haste simply stacks, and it not caluclated after, then DW bonus will be more effective then haste for swing speeds.

    After 10m of straight attacks, we counted 145 vollys.

    ::No extra DW bonus, 10% haste::
    [(227+227)*.7].9=286.02
    After testing it a few times, I believe this to be true.

    After 10m of straight attacks, we counted 125 vollys.

    It doesn't make that huge of a difference. But its still a small swing speed increase. The only time this would ever really be a question is when you had to chose between haste and DW. For nin that's only the pants, really. Byakkos are better in the long run imho, because you get almost 5% haste w/o the TP reduction (not to mention the dex). I was reading a post from a nin who was talking about 7-8% bonus from DW equip. This might explain the results. You aren't getting a higher % DW, its just being calculated before haste is, so its seemingly more effective.

  2. #2
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    Haste affects Utsumei recast. DW does not. done

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by vahnn
    Haste affects Utsumei recast. DW does not. done
    I don't think anyone was arguing that DW>Haste for most situations, but its nice to see someone testing out which would be better DoT for lets say if you already have another tank. Which DW bonus items were you using out of curiosity?

    edit: guess everything just confirms that haste > dw anyways

  4. #4
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    Haste also gives normal TP, DW does not.

    You might be right but I think TP gain should factor into it as well, might still do better with slighty less swings but normal TP.

  5. #5
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    It wasn't anything I was specifically trying to prove or disprove. I just wanted to know once and for all.

    I still all my haste gear when I would normaly.

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    This was discussed ad nauseum on the NIN forums on KI. If you have Koga Legs and Suppa on, adding in NIN Chainmail is actually the equivalent of 8% haste since you're going from 60% of your combined delay to 55%.

  7. #7

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezzimal
    This was discussed ad nauseum on the NIN forums on KI. If you have Koga Legs and Suppa on, adding in NIN Chainmail is actually the equivalent of 8% haste since you're going from 60% of your combined delay to 55%.
    In the same vein, adding byakko's to a setup that already has 15% haste (4 belt 3 hand 3 feet 5 hat) + haste spell (15%) + march1 (11%) takes you from 59%->54% haste, an actual improvement of about the same.

    Haste and DW are two of a very small set of stats that has increasing returns when stacked. Another one that follows this pattern is damage reduction gear. A defending ring will reduce damage you take by 10% if you have no other reduction gear; with 60% damage reduction already on it will decrease the damage you take by ~17%

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    Quote Originally Posted by aurik
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezzimal
    This was discussed ad nauseum on the NIN forums on KI. If you have Koga Legs and Suppa on, adding in NIN Chainmail is actually the equivalent of 8% haste since you're going from 60% of your combined delay to 55%.
    In the same vein, adding byakko's to a setup that already has 15% haste (4 belt 3 hand 3 feet 5 hat) + haste spell (15%) + march1 (11%) takes you from 59%->54% haste, an actual improvement of about the same.
    I'm not sure I get your point here. Adding 5% haste to a 41% haste setup bring it to 46%? Isn't it exactly what it's suposed to do?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaylia
    Quote Originally Posted by aurik
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezzimal
    This was discussed ad nauseum on the NIN forums on KI. If you have Koga Legs and Suppa on, adding in NIN Chainmail is actually the equivalent of 8% haste since you're going from 60% of your combined delay to 55%.
    In the same vein, adding byakko's to a setup that already has 15% haste (4 belt 3 hand 3 feet 5 hat) + haste spell (15%) + march1 (11%) takes you from 59%->54% haste, an actual improvement of about the same.
    I'm not sure I get your point here. Adding 5% haste to a 41% haste setup bring it to 46%? Isn't it exactly what it's suposed to do?
    Moving from 59% delay to 54% is around a 9% reduction in speed, not 5%

    edit: your reference at this point is 59%, not 100% like if you're naked

  10. #10
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    The real question, though, is does the minimal increase in Crit Rate from the +15 DEX on Haidate parse out to more or less damage than the extra hits from Koga Hakama in the long run?

    The TP argument is sort of a moot point, but not really. Adding a piece of DW gear reduces your TP/hit by at most .1 in most circumstances. With 2 227 delay katanas, Brutal Earring, Suppanomimi and Rajas, you still get exactly 5.0% TP per hit, so 10 attack rounds to hit 100% TP the first time, and then 9 thereafter with a 2% TP buffer (assuming full TP return on Jin).

    With 1 piece of DW gear, you lose 2 TP to 100%. Assuming you're not a stupid git and you macro out DW gear for WSs like you should, you'll still get 12% TP returns from a full Jin and as such will not require an extra attack round to hit 100% TP. After you add the 2nd piece, you will require 1 Double Attack proc or 1 additional attack round to hit 100% TP. Since DA has a 10% activation rate (higher with Brutal), 9 times out of 10 (in the long run) you will reach 100% TP in 9 attack rounds, which practically equals TP gain rate with no DW gear besides Suppanomimi.

    Additionally, the impact of lessened TP is smaller on NIN since the bulk of NIN's damage comes from regular hits, but you really can't argue that more WSs is better. It's more that you don't lose a ton of damage by requiring an extra attack round to hit 100% since those regular hits account for a ton of damage anyway.

    Frankly, in XP camps versus low-level mobs it might well be the best bet to wear full +DW TP gain and only macro in Haidate for Utsusemi and WSs. The only wild card is the change in crit rate, which would take a lot of parsing to lock down. An interesting study nonetheless.

  11. #11
    Relic Horn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amastacia
    The real question, though, is does the minimal increase in Crit Rate from the +15 DEX on Haidate parse out to more or less damage than the extra hits from Koga Hakama in the long run?
    Actually, I've come to be interested in a dex-heavy setup for ninja after seeing one nin pull a 25% crit rate out of his ass with trollbane and a lot of dex. My NIN setup, which is the kind you're suggesting which just focuses on pure speed (no haidate, but koga legs) landed me a 14% crit rate. The other nin used the AF+1 Body/Hands, Haidate and an Unji offhand. Both of us had capped crit hit merits. Its not really a minimal increase, rather a quite substantial one when you make the focus of your setup critical hits.

  12. #12
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    Well in another thread I'm not going to go dig up and link, it was sort of decided that 9-10DEX difference is about 1% cri hit rate difference on the parser.

    Trollbane is too new to know if it's like a flat +5% or if it is affected by DEX difference, I would think.

  13. #13

    Don't forget the rather largish accuracy increase on Byakko's Haidate due to the dex when considering the merits of going koga or byakko in the legs slot.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezzimal
    Quote Originally Posted by Amastacia
    The real question, though, is does the minimal increase in Crit Rate from the +15 DEX on Haidate parse out to more or less damage than the extra hits from Koga Hakama in the long run?
    Actually, I've come to be interested in a dex-heavy setup for ninja after seeing one nin pull a 25% crit rate out of his ass with trollbane and a lot of dex. My NIN setup, which is the kind you're suggesting which just focuses on pure speed (no haidate, but koga legs) landed me a 14% crit rate. The other nin used the AF+1 Body/Hands, Haidate and an Unji offhand. Both of us had capped crit hit merits. Its not really a minimal increase, rather a quite substantial one when you make the focus of your setup critical hits.
    That's sort of why I'm curious. My question is not whether more DEX does increase your crit rate, it's whether the 15 from Haidate results in enough increase in total damage to eclipse the extra damage vis a vis the AF2 pants' extra hits. I'm sure a pure +DEX build is beastly for crits, but there's a lot of factors contributing to total damage and I'm highly interested in finding the optimal balance for different camps.

    I'd love to test it personally, but the only Koga Hakama I've seen drop was when I was guesting on a run with old friends just for the fun of it (didn't cost me anything, I didn't die, but I couldn't lot AF), and as an LS officer, a 2nd job NIN, and a nice guy I don't push hard for priority on Haidate (I certainly would love to have them though). Until I have one or both pairs of pants, I really can't do any testing, taking into account I can and will macro swap as much as I have to as often as I have to in order to get top performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by aurik
    Don't forget the rather largish accuracy increase on Byakko's Haidate due to the dex when considering the merits of going koga or byakko in the legs slot.
    When XPing in places like sky or Bhaflau Thickets, this isn't a concern. Parsing 95% Acc with capped Katana merits is trivial, although it's certainly worth considering flipping to a meat build instead of a balls-out Haste+Att build that requires Sushi (/crai) if it ultimately means more damage. It's certainly more noteworthy for Halvung (/gag) or Uleguerand Range, though, and I'd imagine that Haidate might be better for both zones for that reason alone.

  15. #15
    Relic Horn
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    Another thing to note, although she was parsing 25% crit damage, hit-for-hit I was above her damage. I would probably attribute this to a lack of +attack and using unji offhand. I would make 2 minor changes, Fudo offhand and either Okote or Dusk Gloves in place of NIN Tekko +1 for TPing.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amastacia
    Quote Originally Posted by aurik
    Don't forget the rather largish accuracy increase on Byakko's Haidate due to the dex when considering the merits of going koga or byakko in the legs slot.
    When XPing in places like sky or Bhaflau Thickets, this isn't a concern. Parsing 95% Acc with capped Katana merits is trivial, although it's certainly worth considering flipping to a meat build instead of a balls-out Haste+Att build that requires Sushi (/crai) if it ultimately means more damage. It's certainly more noteworthy for Halvung (/gag) or Uleguerand Range, though, and I'd imagine that Haidate might be better for both zones for that reason alone.
    You don't parse at 95% accuracy rate in Bhaflau Thickets unless you're A) only exping on Puks (stupid) and they never use Obfuscate (which they do, all the time). I have max katana merits and I use sushi and substantial accuracy gear, and I parsed ~87% inside Mamook while mostly avoiding Puks. The extra DEX from Byakko's is definately worth it.

  17. #17

    Quote Originally Posted by Amastacia
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezzimal
    Quote Originally Posted by Amastacia
    The real question, though, is does the minimal increase in Crit Rate from the +15 DEX on Haidate parse out to more or less damage than the extra hits from Koga Hakama in the long run?
    Actually, I've come to be interested in a dex-heavy setup for ninja after seeing one nin pull a 25% crit rate out of his ass with trollbane and a lot of dex. My NIN setup, which is the kind you're suggesting which just focuses on pure speed (no haidate, but koga legs) landed me a 14% crit rate. The other nin used the AF+1 Body/Hands, Haidate and an Unji offhand. Both of us had capped crit hit merits. Its not really a minimal increase, rather a quite substantial one when you make the focus of your setup critical hits.
    That's sort of why I'm curious. My question is not whether more DEX does increase your crit rate, it's whether the 15 from Haidate results in enough increase in total damage to eclipse the extra damage vis a vis the AF2 pants' extra hits. I'm sure a pure +DEX build is beastly for crits, but there's a lot of factors contributing to total damage and I'm highly interested in finding the optimal balance for different camps.

    I'd love to test it personally, but the only Koga Hakama I've seen drop was when I was guesting on a run with old friends just for the fun of it (didn't cost me anything, I didn't die, but I couldn't lot AF), and as an LS officer, a 2nd job NIN, and a nice guy I don't push hard for priority on Haidate (I certainly would love to have them though). Until I have one or both pairs of pants, I really can't do any testing, taking into account I can and will macro swap as much as I have to as often as I have to in order to get top performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by aurik
    Don't forget the rather largish accuracy increase on Byakko's Haidate due to the dex when considering the merits of going koga or byakko in the legs slot.
    When XPing in places like sky or Bhaflau Thickets, this isn't a concern. Parsing 95% Acc with capped Katana merits is trivial, although it's certainly worth considering flipping to a meat build instead of a balls-out Haste+Att build that requires Sushi (/crai) if it ultimately means more damage. It's certainly more noteworthy for Halvung (/gag) or Uleguerand Range, though, and I'd imagine that Haidate might be better for both zones for that reason alone.
    If you're parsing 95% accuracy, you're using way too much accuracy, most likely from your choice of food.

    And as shown above, if you have stacked haste then byakkos delivers the same actual speed increase as koga pants do with stacked DW, and at the same time doesn't affect TP gain.

  18. #18
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    I agree 100% with the gloves. AF+1 gloves are trash except for ranged attacks. Dusk and O./B. Kote outparse for TP gain, and O. Kote are superior for WSs. Haste setup is good and all, but it doesn't matter how fast you hit if you hit like a little girl.

    Offhand Unji though, is neither here nor there. Sort of depends on your setup, and it's definitely not as attractive as it was before the TP floor was removed. Even so, while Unji/Unsho may not be that hot for XPing (fun as hell when you're just goofing off though), Senj/Unji is pretty damn strong. Biggest downside is that the lower TP/hit from the low-delay offhand makes DW gear less attractive.

    Quote Originally Posted by aurik
    If you're parsing 95% accuracy, you're using way too much accuracy, most likely from your choice of food.

    And as shown above, if you have stacked haste then byakkos delivers the same actual speed increase as koga pants do with stacked DW, and at the same time doesn't affect TP gain.
    You're probably right, and in fact 95% Acc in Thickets is a bit of an exaggeration due to Puks' Flash WS (a part of the reason I use sushi in the first place is to avoid too much of an acc hit when you get spammy Puks). Total Acc is probably on the sunny side of 90% but dropped by that WS. In sky it's a hovering 90-95% so it's not really over-capped, just barely pushing it. I'm still working on acquiring enough Acc gear to really make meat shine, but working 40 hour weeks and having unescapable RL commitments combined with being the most active officer in my LS means I have little time to myself to make money. I'm putting together my meat build, it's just slower going than I would like.

    The one problem with the stacked Haste argument is that it relies on an outside party. Yes, with both a BRD and a mage who's willing and MP-able to run a 3-or-4-melee Haste cycle it can give you the same results, but you can't guarantee that. Good BRDs and top-notch mages with the endurance for long burn parties are depressingly rare on Asura. They're out there, but I mostly do LS parties with what's available instead of flagging up for XP very often due to how pisspoor most lv 75 players are on our server. I'm not buddy buddy with that many of the hardcore XP clique who know and monopolize the really good players (i.e. Stella, Althena, and a few others).

    It's entirely possible that purely from a damage standpoint Haidate can equal Koga, I want to test to find out just how practical or possible that is, rather than just assume one or the other is better.

  19. #19
    Masterofshade
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    My personal TP setup is Suppano, AF2 Legs, AF1 Body, Walahra Turban, and Fuma-Sune Ate. I haven't gotten BHaidate yet, I'm next up for lotting priority. Dusk Gloves and Swift Belt are on my list of shit to get, I've got a Stylet on bazaar in Sauromugue for my gloves.

    Anyways, with Rajas my TP per hit is about 4.7 or 4.8, I haven't really done the math.

    Attacking alongside a friend who was using the -exact- same gear, except for BHaidate in place of my AF2, I did attack faster. Not by much though.

    Personally I'll be using BHaidate when I get it, 15dex is apparently a noticeable acc difference. Eventually, I would like to get the Body+1, PCC and Toreador's ring, and see if I can get away with meat, or perhaps Hedgehog Pie.

    We'll see.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amastacia
    The one problem with the stacked Haste argument is that it relies on an outside party. Yes, with both a BRD and a mage who's willing and MP-able to run a 3-or-4-melee Haste cycle it can give you the same results, but you can't guarantee that.
    Use a 2 BRD 1 RDM 3 melee setup, it's fucking awesome, kills faster than BRD RDM 4 melee, and is great for your e-penis. (seriously)

    Edit: Safer too.

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