Thief Damage increase Fact or Fiction?

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

DA reduces Triple attack rates by 10%. Thats like biting its ear off, a mini cannibal. DA is IMO better than 20% DW, even with that slight ear-biting. Why? DA adds TP and enhances WSes. Also Zerk is good. Meat is good. Zerk + Meat is amazing. THF is normally a very low attack job, they dont have ouchi kotes or innate attack up traits (WAR sub adds one however.)

And THF is one job that, when played right, can do a shitton of damage and still not draw hate. That relies on player skill though...and ehhhhh.

[aurik]

Yup, JSword can stack with triple, but you're losing 6 base damage and your ranged slot still. Ridill is still better.

When your triple rate is 15%~ (with the right gear/merits), that's an extra 30 swings per 100. Adding 10% double attack will give you 10 swings per 100 yet also take away 3, so you only get 7% benefit. Compare this with a 20% delay reduction that doesn't reduce your TP gain per hit by anywhere near that amount, I don't think you enhance TP gain at all. You also lose the guaranteed extra hit on your WS which, unless you're offhanding mkris for TP acceleration, is still a good chunk of damage; so much for DA enhancing your WS.

Zerk is good, meat is good, zerk+meat+songs = insane attack, that as a mandau thf you don't need all that much because you get an innate +1.0 pDIF from stacking SA or TA onto your WS.

[Vic]

I can definatly notice an increase in damage, and also a nice change for the best for evisceration.

I was bored on my war/nin and was xping at lufaise on birdies. I was using gaxe because i was lazy(flame me).

Anyways, i decided to pull out my blau dolch and Joyeuse to play around with on the birdies. Enough to say, I was extremly shocked with the results.

The firsts one I did did around 700 dmg evi. Then the next did 800. both around 120 tp.

Then I did one at 200 tp, and it didn 11xx dmg. Crazy. I also did 800 evi > 1200 darkness

I cant wait to go there as my thf now. And none of those evi's I showed up there got a Double attack.

[divisortheory]

You know aurik, just drop the bomb and level thief and upgrade dagger instead of knuckles. You know you want to

[Soma]

I'd use a Ridill to support a mainhand HS, because lolsushi isn't such a big deal with Evisc now

If you're planning on stacking Evis with SA or TA, yes. But I hate doing that. The only time I stack my WS with SA or TA is on Lurkers or Wyverns.

My DE is still far superior compared to Evis when unstacked. 800-900 average DEs on Mamools compared to 600-700 Evis (post-patch). This is, of course, when all 5 hits connected. And that's using meat. If I use sushi instead, dmg output by Evis would be downright terrible regardless of Ridill contributing to dmg from offhand.

I'd personally never offhand Ridill on my THF. It's nothing but a mere toy for me. If I wanna spam WS in a PT, I'd just offhand Kraken Club.

[chiz]

The damage boost is definitely fact, but to see the difference people are going to need to rethink some of their gear and food set-ups. A lot of good info already posted here, the main one being the use of meat over sushi. The key thing to remember is that this update shifted the balance of THF WS towards the WS damage itself rather than the SA/TA stat bonuses and WS stat modifiers.

I'm pretty convinced now though that the way to go is to dual-wield daggers if you /nin. Its a tougher call if you have a Ridill/Kraken/Justice/M.kris to play with, but personally I think 2 high damage daggers with meat will provide better results than a 200-210 rating TP spam off-hand weapon.

If you've got a Mandau/Batardeau or even a P.Harpe, I wouldn't even bother with Ridill/Kraken/Justice. Go with Blau off-hand and eat meat for high accuracy and high damage. Hell, with Mandau I'd even single-wield it even with /NIN and use a Viking or Tatami rather than delay any attacks and chances for triple damage procs.

I've never really liked Ridill on IT mobs, I didn't lot it with THF in mind although it does have its usefulness. Its still great in Limbus and Dynamis but again, that may change once I get Batardeau on Sunday. Even with +4 merits, Suppa and Fort. Torque I only get 230 sword skill on THF. To hit IT mobs consistently enough to make it worthwhile, I need to use Sushi, which significantly decreases dagger DoT as well as WS damage.

Ridill is really just a guaranteed Double Attack off-hand (33% chance for single, double, and triple attack). The nice thing about Ridill for THF in the past was that its base damage was so much higher than end-game daggers it boosted DoT and also increased TP rate. However, the patch closed the gap considerably in terms of base damage for daggers to the point I don't really see any benefit in using Ridill in EXP anymore. Meat with Ridill isn't a good option imo, a 50-60% hit-rate on a Double Attack isn't much better than an 80-85% hit-rate on a Dagger that has a chance to Double and Triple Attack.

As for K.club, I can't think of a time I'd use it over Ridill or a nice off-hand dagger. The DoT and poor accuracy simply don't make up for the increase in # of WS, especially in a burn set-up where mobs are dying so quickly you're only getting off 1 WS per mob anyways or you're sitting on timers.

Next debate: DH vs. Heca Harness revisited. I'm gonna hold onto a horn from Ouryu this weekend and test it out again but my thoughts are DH is going to be the better choice now.

[Eaglestrike]

DH vs HH depends on your setup and what ws.

With meat:
DE = HH
SB = DH
EV = HH if acc needed.

With sushi:
DH wins, IMO.

Mercy is STR from what Wafik says, so HH. I can't wait for my LS to get to some Kirin's, have a few pop sets, I'm overall 0/14 with Heca body dropped and I have HQ sitting in my safe -.-

Edit: I see DH as mainly a solo body piece in end-game use really. I'd use for SB still, but once I get Homam/Heca bodies I'll most likely sell my DH to help get Mandau a bit quicker.

[Soma]

You're right. I wouldn't consider off-handing Kraken Club in any PTs. I just wanted to point out the fact that if I had the choice between Ridill/Kraken to offhand, I'd choose Kraken simply because Ridill going to a THF is a huge waste. I don't own a Ridill, but do have a Kraken.

But yea, I would always offhand a dagger in merit PTs.

I've been consistently using Heca Harness for DE and Evis while using DH for Shark Bites. On HNMs with naturally high defense, some favor using Heca for the +STR. For me, I use DH on all HNMs (save Evisceration), since I sub DRK. I believe Souleater provides quite an amount of accuracy when it's activated.

900+ SB on Gods
1000+ SB on Kirin

Both with DH pre-patch with no triple attack proc'ing. I'd definitely stick with DH on HNMs.

[aurik]

Mercy is totally str str str, and needs stacking with a crit JA. Basically, you want to hit that magic 3.0 pDIF modifier and then add as much str as you can at the juicy 60% stat mod on top of the natural 25% mod from fSTR. Basically, for every 4 strength you have during the WS, you get 27 damage out, versus a 3:1 return for DEX or AGI depending on which crit JA you are stacking it with.

[Slott]

Picking apart my thief...been meaning to do this for a while, and I really want to be able to use meat over sushi nowadays (can only do it effectively so far in mire on imps/flies/toads etc)

when in mamook or vs those vt trees or any shit i just miss too much

Since i used sushi for so long, i went for a haste/triple set up, but im looking for some effective changes to be able to use meat:

Here's what I use

TP set up:

daggers: Blau + merckris or sirocco
Walahra turban
Love torque
Brutal earring
Ethereal earring (yeah not the best choice, but evasion and atk all in one ) Plus i cant get suppano (thf isnt my main, and i went abyssal. WOO STORAGE) didnt have thf lvld at the time

Scorp +1 (til omega finally puts out, but /doubt that)
Homam manopolas
Rajas
Breeze ring (yeah thats gotta go, hated seeing neg agi lol)
amemet +1
swift belt
galliard trousers
assassins poulaines +1

For ws, i pretty much swap in full heca and warwolf belt (since i only swap 6 items using ff11's macros, not gonna use windowers)

set up worked really well most of the time w/ sushi on mostly anything, but it doesnt let me use meat at all on anything vt+

thinking maybe if i use a sniper+1 instead of breeze and o hat over walahra it might be fine? i dunno..suggestions please

[Soma]

thinking maybe if i use a sniper+1 instead of breeze and o hat over walahra it might be fine?

Yup, it most definitely would! This is my current TP build. It's not the best equipment that one can come up with, but it's enough to do what I want it to do. With that build, I parse around 75-80% accuracy in thickets, which isn't impressive, but it's enough to satisfy me. I like to go all +accuracy equipment for TP build while using meat type food.

If you add Sniper +1, O.hat, like you can, it'll be an awesome boost.

Also, I highly encourage you unlock Feint. It's simply amazing for Lurkers. With Feint, I can bring down Lurker's natural High Evasion /check to Low Evasion while using meat. The melees in PT absolutely love it, including myself.

[Dezzimal]

nothing is stopping you from using more than one macro is there? I have an "emergency accuracy" macro that I can hit for lurkers/nins etc. I certainly hope you have macro room on your THF pallete.

[divisortheory]

nothing is stopping you from using more than one macro is there? I have an "emergency accuracy" macro that I can hit for lurkers/nins etc. I certainly hope you have macro room on your THF pallete.

I simply hit my Feint macro in that situation

[Lordwafik]

Feint = <3

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2526/feintroxdq2.jpg


http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/119/lol2cl9.jpg

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6563/lol1vf2.jpg

lol triple on SA

[Zetah]

I started using Sis Kebabi. I like the melee hits / ws damage, and it sort of blends well with maxed katana merits, but I need good ACC rings now. >.> Jaeger/Sniper atm for Sis Kebabi. Kind of like sole sushi more though, as nin. I'm sure I'd like it more if I was thf or war or rng and such.

[hotpiercedguy]

THF knife in xp pt......why? Get a sirocco or misericorde+1.

Anyways, one of our LS thieves did a 906 SATA+Assassin's Charge+Last Resort+Souleater Sharkbite to Tiamat last night with no food or bard buffs. Not sure on what dagger he used, but it'd either be a thief knife or blau.

I want a stylet. The THF knife is actully pretty good damage like I said I do not use it during the daylight hours.

stylet's crap. Faux parsed it for me when I had 2 sitting in my bazaar for 2 months.

2 Rare knives in your bazzar huh? [That's Interesting]

Stylet is actually pretty good for offhand. Regardless of what your friends parser said.

On a seperate note, THF's are defietely(sp?) up there now on damage. BEFORE the update my record WS was 2099 DE on an Abraxas. With my normal WS dong around 1600~. Now Id say my norm is about 1900~. I am very much loving the buff. For w/e purpose ill post my gear:

0-99 tp

Blau Dolch
Tatami Shield (I almost always sub war)
Lightning Bow+1
Walahra Turban
Peacock Charm
Mermans earing
Minuet earing (assuming theres a bard. If not then Pixie Earing.)
SH+1
War Gloves+1 or Dusk gloves (Depends on what mood im in)
Sniper
Sniper+1
Amemet+1
Life belt
Galliard trousers
Assasins Boots (striders for pulling)

WS Gear:

Blau Dolch
Tatami Shield (I almost always sub war)
Lightning Bow+1
Hecatomb Cap+1
Spike Necklace or Chiv. Chain, depending
Minuet earing
Pixie earing
Dragon Harness or Hecaomb body, depending
Hecatomb mittens
Flame Ring or Breeze ring (depending)
Flame Ring or Breeze ring (depending)
Commanders cape
Warwolf belt
Hecatomb Subligar
Hecatomb feet+1

I eat Hedgehog pie if no bard, and Usually Red curry if there is a bard. Or Sis kebabi If I know It will be a short Party.

[Zetah]

Nice signature.

[Brennon]

THF knife in xp pt......why? Get a sirocco or misericorde+1.

Anyways, one of our LS thieves did a 906 SATA+Assassin's Charge+Last Resort+Souleater Sharkbite to Tiamat last night with no food or bard buffs. Not sure on what dagger he used, but it'd either be a thief knife or blau.

I want a stylet. The THF knife is actully pretty good damage like I said I do not use it during the daylight hours.

stylet's crap. Faux parsed it for me when I had 2 sitting in my bazaar for 2 months.

2 Rare knives in your bazzar huh? [That's Interesting]

Stylet is actually pretty good for offhand. Regardless of what your friends parser said.

On a seperate note, THF's are defietely(sp?) up there now on damage. BEFORE the update my record WS was 2099 DE on an Abraxas. With my normal WS dong around 1600~. Now Id say my norm is about 1900~. I am very much loving the buff. For w/e purpose ill post my gear:

0-99 tp

Blau Dolch
Tatami Shield (I almost always sub war)
Lightning Bow+1
Walahra Turban
Peacock Charm
Mermans earing
Minuet earing (assuming theres a bard. If not then Pixie Earing.)
SH+1
War Gloves+1 or Dusk gloves (Depends on what mood im in)
Sniper
Sniper+1
Amemet+1
Life belt
Galliard trousers
Assasins Boots (striders for pulling)

WS Gear:

Blau Dolch
Tatami Shield (I almost always sub war)
Lightning Bow+1
Hecatomb Cap+1
Spike Necklace or Chiv. Chain, depending
Minuet earing
Pixie earing
Dragon Harness or Hecaomb body, depending
Hecatomb mittens
Flame Ring or Breeze ring (depending)
Flame Ring or Breeze ring (depending)
Commanders cape
Warwolf belt
Hecatomb Subligar
Hecatomb feet+1

I eat Hedgehog pie if no bard, and Usually Red curry if there is a bard. Or Sis kebabi If I know It will be a short Party.

Maybe you could shrink that pic for a signature just a little? Just a thought

[Russta]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bigrussta/ps.jpg

Stop photoshopping up lies, Wafik.

[Eaglestrike]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bigrussta/ps.jpg

Stop photoshopping up lies, Wafik.

BLU got him?