Thief Damage increase Fact or Fiction?

[othellojr]

It definitely stacks with WS.

Dancing Edge on Robber Crab (13 TP return)

Dancing Edge on Robber Crab with Assassin's Charge (15 TP return)

It's alot easier to notice on lower level mobs. On xp mobs, you tend to miss a hit or two during WS, often at times, you don't notice the full TP return even with Assassin's Charge.

Also highly depends how many times you crit within the WS.

@ Wrekt - nope, nothing today Was busy, logged in > then went out with some friends with toon AFK, came back in time for limbus, and now bed time night! Nothing on for tomorrow so i'll test then.

I was wondering is Mandau and MS is supposed to do a possible "Nightmare" sleep effect, would you offhanding another dagger not just wake the mob up(I mean, normally offhanding a second weapon you hit with the offweapon once, right?)?--yah two questions there, lol.

[Eaglestrike]

I think it's awesome, just need to know how to stack it.

How do you stack it? When I do it, I'll WS + 3 dagger swings right after.
I even tried it w/ a regular attack. It's just 3 dagger swings. I thought it's supposed to make your next hit 3x the damage. At least they worded it that way.
A 10min JA that makes your Triple Attack proc once and doesn't stack w/ WS is really really gay.

It stacks with WS. Try doing Assassin's Charge+SATA+Shark Bite, and watch your TP return. It's best used with Shark Bite (and Mercy of course, lol) because of the high fTP.

I believe it's best used with SB and MS because of the high modifiers, isn't fTP first hit only? What I had meant in my post a few up is that if you have a ton of Dex for SB or Str for MS it'll be a very powerful increase.

[PussPuss]

If the poison from the dagger doesn't wake a sleeping mob that means the 1 down side to the dagger is gone and this can be used on any NM that you would need to sleep every once in a while. Not to mention the extra damage that you put out throughout the fight with it.

[Lordwafik]

If the poison from the dagger doesn't wake a sleeping mob that means the 1 down side to the dagger is gone and this can be used on any NM that you would need to sleep every once in a while. Not to mention the extra damage that you put out throughout the fight with it.

I'll try that on my RDM, single weilding.

Stab till poisoned > Turn around > Sleep2

[NynJa]

You try it yet by chance ?

[chiz]

If the poison from the dagger doesn't wake a sleeping mob that means the 1 down side to the dagger is gone and this can be used on any NM that you would need to sleep every once in a while. Not to mention the extra damage that you put out throughout the fight with it.

I'll try that on my RDM, single weilding.

Stab till poisoned > Turn around > Sleep2

Was actually going to ask you to test that. I think I read someone in Cleen's LS briefly mentioning how the proc was a "godsend" on harder mobs like wyrms and he didn't mention anything about sleeping being an issue.

Also my earlier comments about Heca vs. DH was aimed toward harder mobs where PDIF wouldn't be capped at 3 in situations where every little bit would help to push PDIF and WS dmg. For Mercy Stroke, STR all the way for sure, but I guess thinking about it the difference between Heca and Dharness with regards to Attack really isn't that much. 12 str = 6 attack so its basically 6 agi/dex 10 attk vs. 12 str 6 attk. Going further with the rSTR bonus, I think the increased WDMG for daggers might be enough to bump up the rSTR cap by 1 for some daggers.

I guess there's just not too many other places to swap out str/dex/agi for attack without sacrificing too much. I dunno, might try using Viking instead of Tatami again or maybe Vanguard Belt instead of Warwolf. 4-5 attack on a single piece isn't that much but when you gain 4-5 attack on 4-5 pieces the difference becomes noticeable.

Got to play with Mercy Stroke last night in Beacedine also. God its such a sexy WS. People who like to stack WS with SA, TA or both are going to love Mercy. Beac. mobs, even NMs aren't much more difficult than Home City mobs, but I was pulling 1100-1400 WS with just TA+Mercy on Beastmen mobs with Meat + Minuet4 and 600-900 TA+Mercy on Shadows. I'll get a better idea on what to expect on harder mobs in Xarca on Friday.

[PussPuss]

If he tried it and it worked there is probably major fappage going on and we need to wait for him to finish to let us know.

[chiz]

I think it's awesome, just need to know how to stack it.

How do you stack it? When I do it, I'll WS + 3 dagger swings right after.
I even tried it w/ a regular attack. It's just 3 dagger swings. I thought it's supposed to make your next hit 3x the damage. At least they worded it that way.
A 10min JA that makes your Triple Attack proc once and doesn't stack w/ WS is really really gay.

It stacks with WS. Try doing Assassin's Charge+SATA+Shark Bite, and watch your TP return. It's best used with Shark Bite (and Mercy of course, lol) because of the high fTP.

I believe it's best used with SB and MS because of the high modifiers, isn't fTP first hit only? What I had meant in my post a few up is that if you have a ton of Dex for SB or Str for MS it'll be a very powerful increase.

Hmmm pretty sure fTP counts for all hits but the reason the extra hits after the first are somewhat insignificant compared to the first is because of the +1 fTP from TA or SA crit along with the AGI or DEX stat bonuses on the first strike.

In order to see a bigger difference on those extra hits you rely on PDIF to push that fTP without crit or stat bonuses, which is why I was thinking stacking attack on WS might result in more consistently high damage numbers on higher defense mobs. Mercy Stroke really benefits from AC if you have the attack to back it up. Turns a 1 hit WS into a 3 hit WS with massive fTP and STR modifiers.

[suji]

Hmmm pretty sure fTP counts for all hits but the reason the extra hits after the first are somewhat insignificant compared to the first is because of the +1 fTP from TA or SA crit along with the AGI or DEX stat bonuses on the first strike.

fTP is 1.0 for all hits beyond the first hit. I forget whether or not it's 1.0 for the extra hit granted from dualwield as well, or whether or not it applies to the extra hits of a Triple Attack on your first hit where fTP is higher (ie, with Assassin's Charge).

[aurik]

All extra hits (DW bonus hit, DA/3A bonus hit, and natural "extra hits" in the WS) have fTP = 1.0. I think the stat mods to base damage apply to all hits, though.

That's why I think Rampage is technically "broken". The fTP is 0.5, which only applies to the first of 5-8 hits. Doesn't make much sense.

[othellojr]

When you test that, look at my prior post, still I wonder, don't you get a hit with your offhand on all ws's? (I know is true for the non-relic ws's does it apply to relic ws's too?) So if you hit with your offhand you wake a mob up, right?

[PussPuss]

Read the thread. It doesn't sleep a mob, it poisons it. What might be true is the poison effect wont wake up a sleeping mob. This means you fight with the relic, disengage for sleep and the mob takes the poison damage but will not wake up like nightmare does.

[aurik]

When you test that, look at my prior post, still I wonder, don't you get a hit with your offhand on all ws's? (I know is true for the non-relic ws's does it apply to relic ws's too?) So if you hit with your offhand you wake a mob up, right?

If you want an answer to this question, stack warrior's charge with shockwave and see if sleep still sticks.

[NynJa]

I glanced over from a post from Wafik testing if the mandau poison works like nightmare...no post from Wafik, didnt bother reading any one elses posts. sorry

[Lordwafik]

I tested it. RDM/WHM, no spikes or crap, just stoneskin/phalanx.

Stabbed Colibri, "add effect : poison" and turned around, casted sleep2 on it:


"Lordwafik Starts casting Sleep II on the Lesser Colibri"
"The Lesser Colibri is no longer asleep"
"Lordwafik casts Sleep II on the Lesser Colibri"
"The Lesser Colibri is asleep" (or whatever it says)

So the rumours = poopoo.

Poison doesnt last very long anyway. You should have no problems holding the mob till you can sleep it in 20-30sec unless your LS sucks, but the proc rate is quite high.
(Should ppl even be sleeping fafnir anymore ? They should take away the ability to sleep this mob ;p ).
If the monster is already poisoned, my poison wont overwrite it, poison2 > mandau poison for some reason, even though they're both 10hp/tic.

[PussPuss]

Boo! Woulda been nice if it was true, but it defied all game logic anyway =\

[Wrekt]

Well that sucks to hear about the poison not being 'nightmarish' but whatever I still think its insignificant.

I currently am still undecided on tatami shield or viking (and possibly tariqah +1) with the new dagger adjustments. Suggestions?

Until I finish capping dagger I am still using sushi setup(sold my SH to help finish gold to 80 as well as some other useless gear, currently using DH).

I am not sure I will be able to make the conversion to meat until I get some homan pieces. Did a quick recap on how much +acc we can actually get and its pretty impressive.

Acc +36 (including homan headpiece)
Haste +12%
Bonus to triple attack

Swift belt – Acc +3 haste + 4%
Back – foragers str3 + attack +15
Rings – rajas + sniper(+1) or flame
Neck – love torque/specs(currently have)/or pcc
Earrings – brutal/supp or brutal/cassie (+50 hp mmm..) or potentially diabolos earring for another +3 acc
Blau/sk
Bomb core

Grand total of 16% haste
And ~58 acc

Thief in full homan and capped merits would be the devil!

[Ejac]

Havent totally been keeping up with this thread and Im not about to read 12 pages. So, if what Im about to ask is already posted somewhere please forgive me.

Im not the best when it comes to the proc rates and dmg over time. My question is what is more important to the everyday thf. Dmg up to getting the tp or actual tp dmg.

Example: Getting tp faster for ws since most of thf dmg is ws... or. The dmg up to the ws being just as important as ws.

Basically what Im asking is whats everyones view on thf offhanding a mercurial kris?

[Wrekt]

Mkris isnt very good. With our now excellent DPS (blau has a higher DPS then warriors maneater axe) the base damage of our offhand daggers is very important. You're better off spending your time camping a dagger like sirrocco kukri.

As a matter of fact a huge part of our damage actually comes from our DoT.

Lets say im /war and meriting on puks. At roughly 4.9% tp gain thats 20.4 swings and say im avg'ing 50 dmg a swing (not counting crits, which are usually 10-15% of swings) that is a rough 1020 damage to get 100 tp. WS for whatever. However you cut it, your DoT is a large part of your overrall damage.

So in answer to your question. They are both important.

edit*

merited on puks for like 6 hours yesterday and for the life of me cannot remember what the avg swing was so I just threw out the number 50.

[aurik]

Depending on setup, I've seen thf range from 40-60% dmg from WS. Compare this to ninja (30-35), war (25-30), meat monk (20-25). So you should focus on your WS damage some, but not to the complete neglect of the tp-up phase.