Defending Ring (lolsash)

[Linsivi]

Anyway, he challenged us to name "one good reason". I named 2, and he says "oh they don't count". Righto then.

Your 2 points weren't any good at all. Your first point was that sams don't need haste, cause they can get tp else wear. You fail to realize that with more haste, sams can get even more tp. Your second point you never defended, and have failed to bring up an instance where subtle blow is a factor in a fight.

I don't interject in every thread about the sash. Infact, I pass up almost all the cheap shots you guys try and take at me or my shell. Here i'm finally standing up to your guy's beligerance, and you have not lived up to talk.

No, my first point WAS NOT sams don't need haste. My first point was that they see diminished returns on haste compared to other jobs. Now I'm thinking that sash went to waste because you're a fucking moron because I've said this in about 10 different ways and you still don't get it.

And my second point was completely valid, and you dismiss it because you think mob tp gain doesn't make a difference. Newsflash: just because you have ninurtas sash does not make you arbiter of what is or is not important. You must spend too much time TPing on adds and not paying attention to how much mp is spent to repair the damage and ailments from gregale wing.

Sam does not see diminishing return from the haste. I still get tp 6% faster from melee attacks with the belt. I've been saying the same thing 10 times and YOU don't get it. Yes, a lower % of tp gained is from melee, but i don't care what % of tp i get from melee to meditate. I care about how much total tp I make, and I make more total tp with the haste.

Your second point isn't valid, cause you still haven't come up with an instance where mob tp is a considerable factor. Are your ninjas meleeing Jormigand and that's why they need subtle blow to reduce the number of Gregale wings?

NIN/DRK melee during soul eater. And you completely neglect the fact that spells give the mob tp (and are effected by subtle blow gear).

The fact of the matter is, on the aforementioned mobs, the sash will benefit a ninja 100% of the time as opposed to 50-75% of the time on a sam, yet you ignore this simple fact.

[Map]

It's not worthless. If anything, unless you're zerging with a bunch of melee jobs or have a blm division dropping a ton of damage magic, a grand wyrm gains a good share of its TP from the nin/drk whacking it when it lands. Reducing that amount by 8-9% means less TP moves which means a smoother, faster, less dangerous fight.

And as I stated before, nin tanks give the wyrm much more TP over time than your infrequent WS "spam". Therefore, giving them the SB reduces TP given a lot more than having it on some person that occasionally swaps in to WS.

This is only true if you use what I consider an unconventional set up of NIN/DRK to tank tiamat, instead of a much more standard set up of pld/war, pld/nin and nin/war. I could just as easily argue that I tank Tiamat SAM/NIN, do Melee and ws for hate, and thus I need the sash for that subtle blow down.

[Senoska]

Clearly, there's no reason to cry about who has the sash.

Clearly, people still do, and I don't fucking know why.

It's because people who like to post on BG but have nothing useful to contribute--like Senoska or Banstick but unlike Aurik--bring it up in every other thread "lol SAM got a sash" to earn themselves cool-points. Just do a search for "sam AND sash" and you'll see what i'm talking about.

rofl you clearly didnt see how this was started-- I'm walking out the door now I just thought id check this thread before going-- it has such good humor in it

[aurik]

It's not worthless. If anything, unless you're zerging with a bunch of melee jobs or have a blm division dropping a ton of damage magic, a grand wyrm gains a good share of its TP from the nin/drk whacking it when it lands. Reducing that amount by 8-9% means less TP moves which means a smoother, faster, less dangerous fight.

And as I stated before, nin tanks give the wyrm much more TP over time than your infrequent WS "spam". Therefore, giving them the SB reduces TP given a lot more than having it on some person that occasionally swaps in to WS.

This is only true if you use what I consider an unconventional set up of NIN/DRK to tank tiamat, instead of a much more standard set up of pld/war, pld/nin and nin/war. I could just as easily argue that I tank Tiamat SAM/NIN, do Melee and ws for hate, and thus I need the sash for that subtle blow down.

1) so you're conceding my point is true, especially given the fact you can't tank Tiamat as SAM/NIN.
2) nin/drk is hardly "unconventional". Nowadays it's about as unconventional as pld/nin. If you want to talk unconventional let's talk about IRON's use of war/whms.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

It's not worthless. If anything, unless you're zerging with a bunch of melee jobs or have a blm division dropping a ton of damage magic, a grand wyrm gains a good share of its TP from the nin/drk whacking it when it lands. Reducing that amount by 8-9% means less TP moves which means a smoother, faster, less dangerous fight.

And as I stated before, nin tanks give the wyrm much more TP over time than your infrequent WS "spam". Therefore, giving them the SB reduces TP given a lot more than having it on some person that occasionally swaps in to WS.

This is only true if you use what I consider an unconventional set up of NIN/DRK to tank tiamat, instead of a much more standard set up of pld/war, pld/nin and nin/war. I could just as easily argue that I tank Tiamat SAM/NIN, do Melee and ws for hate, and thus I need the sash for that subtle blow down.

No, because nobody ever does SAM/NIN successfully on wyrms. Do it and we'll reconsider, but NIN/DRK has been proven viable and useful.

[Map]

NIN/DRK melee during soul eater. And you completely neglect the fact that spells give the mob tp (and are effected by subtle blow gear).

The fact of the matter is, on the aforementioned mobs, the sash will benefit a ninja 100% of the time as opposed to 50-75% of the time on a sam, yet you ignore this simple fact.

Nobody on my server has ever had a ninja/drk melee tiamat, it doesn't mean that people don't do it, but I don't think it's the best way to tank. I'm not ignoring the fact that spells give mobs tp, only the elemental ninjitsu wheel does, and ninjas don't use those for hnm.

[Banstick]

your points fail.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

NIN/DRK melee during soul eater. And you completely neglect the fact that spells give the mob tp (and are effected by subtle blow gear).

The fact of the matter is, on the aforementioned mobs, the sash will benefit a ninja 100% of the time as opposed to 50-75% of the time on a sam, yet you ignore this simple fact.

Nobody on my server has ever had a ninja/drk melee tiamat, it doesn't mean that people don't do it, but I don't think it's the best way to tank.

Right, because last thing we want is the mob to die faster.

[Khamsin]

On the argument as to whether another job should have gotten it, like I said, it has been explained many times that their LS is point-based only and for good reason.

Point-based only has a lot of room for flaws, as you still need to take job and point proximity into account, much like our own shell does.

Case in point: The WHM that got Novio.

I don't recall the exact point numbers, but the WHM had something like 20 points, and there were BLMs present with 19 points. They give Novio to the WHM, like a points-only LS would do. Yet, you can look at that and see that it is wrong to render a rare item like that completely useless just because the WHM there had 1 more point than the other jobs that worked just as hard (minus 1 point) to get that item.

This is what job priorities and point tiers are for. Naturally, if the WHM had significantly more points than the BLMs, then it would only be right to give it to the WHM because no one else who worked anywhere near as hard for it is present. The item might be going to waste, still, but no one else deserving of such an item would be there that could make better use of it. If the BLMs present had like 15 points compared to the WHM's 20, I could see this happening.

It would have made more sense for the multi-LS team up that formed SeaShell to have job priorities and point tiers to specifically avoid these types of situations, like WHMs getting Novios and SAMs getting Ninurta's Sashes.

While a SAM and DRK might have technically had the most points, I find it hard to believe that no other job out of all those that make better (and more critical) use of the sash than SAM had nowhere near as many points.

If Map had 25%+ more points than the next person with a job that'd make better use of it, then everyone should shut up and be happy for him that he got something he deserved for all the effort he put in. If Map had marginally more points than a NIN or other job, like in the case of the Novio earring, then he should be just as ashamed of himself as the WHM ought to be.

[Map]

I'm not gonna argue tiamat stragegy here. People can fight it however they want. NIN/DRK meleeing seems like an over elaborate way to hold hate or DD on Grands, and feeds them unneccessary tp. I counter it with my over elaborate hypothetical situation of sam/nin tanking tiamat, holding hate with melee and ws (I could easily do this).

[Charitwo]

That still doesn't explain why you didn't give it to a NIN.

You are a loot whore, just like that WHM that got Novio.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I'm not gonna argue tiamat stragegy here. People can fight it however they want. NIN/DRK meleeing seems like an over elaborate way to hold hate or DD on Grands, and feeds them unneccessary tp. I counter it with my over elaborate hypothetical situation of sam/nin tanking tiamat, holding hate with melee and ws (I could easily do this).

Then do it.

BTW, the sash DOES make sense on a DRK, it has recast timers and uses haste gear for TP gain. Why didnt it go to the DRK map?

[Severance]

feeds them unneccessary tp

With the sash they'd give less TP.

[Avinor]

I don't recall the exact point numbers, but the WHM had something like 20 points, and there were BLMs present with 19 points. They give Novio to the WHM, like a points-only LS would do. Yet, you can look at that and see that it is wrong to render a rare item like that completely useless just because the WHM there had 1 more point than the other jobs that worked just as hard (minus 1 point) to get that item.

No. It was nowhere near that close. And we already have a system that blurs point lines to avoid issues of absolute priority by having 1 or 2 more days worth of attendence.

[Tymon]

I've never, neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever heard of a points LS that didn't use SOME kind of priority before.

[Map]

feeds them unneccessary tp

With the sash they'd give less TP.

The whole point is that the ninja doesn't have to be meleeing the grand in the first place. Get a pld in there to hold much better hate and take less damage, or get in some smns to do better damage with blood pacts, or get in a real drk to soul eater it.

[TomodachiF]

lol 10post and all but, I don't really see a problem with him getting the Ninurta Sash. >o, Best TPing belt for his job and all..as long as he deserves it, I don't see how it's any worse than giving a Byakko's Haidate to a MNK over a NIN after the MNK's deserved and NIN doesn't as much..but that's just me.

And about D-ring and whatever...Pld/Nin is good, but not every ls uses it for every fight(PLD/WAR is still pretty viable on Tiamat and it can work just as well)...even if they do, -10% dmg is still good on pld/nin... to whoever made a post about it earlier

[Khamsin]

I've never, neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever heard of a points LS that didn't use SOME kind of priority before.

The fact of a WHM getting Novio and a SAM getting Ninurta's Sash points to the fact that such an LS exists.

[Tymon]

feeds them unneccessary tp

With the sash they'd give less TP.

The whole point is that the ninja doesn't have to be meleeing the grand in the first place. Get a pld in there to hold much better hate and take less damage, or get in some smns to do better damage with blood pacts, or get in a real drk to soul eater it.

...

souleater generates a ton of hate just by using it, sub or main.

the damage is a plus, but not the reason why they're using it.

[Map]

feeds them unneccessary tp

With the sash they'd give less TP.

The whole point is that the ninja doesn't have to be meleeing the grand in the first place. Get a pld in there to hold much better hate and take less damage, or get in some smns to do better damage with blood pacts, or get in a real drk to soul eater it.

...

souleater generates a ton of hate just by using it, sub or main.

the damage is a plus, but not the reason why they're using it.

So does Provoke, and you can use it more often, without giving the mob unneccesary tp.