Defending Ring (lolsash)

[Chreman]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...le/AV-Eric.jpg

[Banstick]

so,map,do you think its ok for a bst to have a ridill,over a war?
if so,i sooooo wanna join your shell :D

[Rocl]

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...le/AV-Eric.jpg

EmotionEric is awesome.

[Vinen]

so,map,do you think its ok for a bst to have a ridill,over a war?
if so,i sooooo wanna join your shell :D

There was a time in Map and myselfs previous LS where we didn't even have to ponder this question, as anyone as near everyone who could use a Ridill had one. The same went for A.body and E.body.

[evilbau]

There was a time in Map and myselfs previous LS where we didn't even have to ponder this question, as anyone as near everyone who could use a Ridill had one. The same went for A.body and E.body.

only vinen can simulataneously brag about stuff that happened years ago, answer a question that wasn't asked and fail to answer the one presented

edit: at the same time lol

[Beave]

Sooo, back to the defending ring topic.

[Syncere]

We could ask Map to see which job should get the D.ring, PLD or NIN?

[Beave]

Didn't he already say NIN should get it?

[Volken]

so,map,do you think its ok for a bst to have a ridill,over a war?
if so,i sooooo wanna join your shell :D

There was a time in Map and myselfs previous LS where we didn't even have to ponder this question, as anyone as near everyone who could use a Ridill had one. The same went for A.body and E.body.

That's some pretty nice Argus settings! I'm quite impressed!

[Darm]

Every thread Map posts in becomes a Ninurta's Sash free for all. Yeah it's stupid for a SAM to have the only one in existence, but at this point you're just beating a dead horse.

[Beave]

So Volken agrees that PLD should get D.ring over NIN.

[Volken]

Every thread Map posts in becomes a Ninurta's Sash free for all. Yeah it's stupid for a SAM to have the only one in existence, but at this point you're just beating a dead horse.

Sup people who don't read the thread at all

You guys will have to step back, and explain to me why the sash should go to a ninja instead of a sam. Think of your arguement slowly, so you don't sound like a complete idiot.

[Beave]

I think we need a seperate thread for the N. Sash discussion, since this one keeps getting derailed from the original topic.

[Syncere]

D.ring > N.Sash

[Beave]

Which is better for SAM? Defending ring, or Ninurta's sash? O.o;;

[Epical]

We could ask Map to see which job should get the D.ring, PLD or SAM?

Fixed to resemble the NIN vs SAM sash comparison.

...and following his logic, SAM should get D.ring because when he get's hit, he can lose 10% less HP!

[Raineh]

so,map,do you think its ok for a bst to have a ridill,over a war?
if so,i sooooo wanna join your shell :D

There was a time in Map and myselfs previous LS where we didn't even have to ponder this question, as anyone as near everyone who could use a Ridill had one. The same went for A.body and E.body.

That's some pretty nice Argus settings! I'm quite impressed!

No, we were just the onlyones who camped him for like ages

[Syncere]

nonono.. d.ring so he could tank as SAM/NIN duh...

[Beave]

Search didn't get me an answer when I tried, but... How exactly did Map end up with the sash anyway? Did he ninja it or something, or did his ls really think SAM got the most use?

[RKenshin]

Wow.. I looked at this thread last night and it was fine at like 5 pages, had a feeling this would be a time bomb though. Just got back from a really annoying day at work and I'm bored out of my mind waiting around in sky.. Read all of it, so I'm going to get some frustrations out with arguing on the points. :D This'll be really long.


First... Kind of surprised people still argue over NIN vs PLD on Defending Ring. Does everyone forget that -10% Magic Damage taken is really just as good as if not better than -10% Physical Damage taken (yes the ring does both, btw), and that like 90% of the damage that tanks take on HNMs now is magic based? Not to mention there's a lot more gear that's easier to get with -damage taken as opposed to -magic taken.

This is all assuming that PLD/NINs are used of course, which at this point I'm 100% confident that a skilled and properly equiped PLD/NIN will not only hold hate better than a PLD/WAR, but also take significantly less damage in addition to reducing the amount of outside MP spent from otherwise necessary curing to other alliance members. Not to brag at all, but I would think my view on this is pretty accurate as well, seeing as how I've tanked beside just about every kind of tank countless times in the past years.

Either way, I'm certain NIN/WAR can potentially take less damage than any PLD could on normal hits, so even when you look at physical damage it's the same boat. It's no offense at all meant to PLDs, and it is definately broken, but it's true.

Tiamat or Jorm with summoners using pld/nin + nin/drk. Ninjas engage with katanas on the ground to generate hate (especially with souleater after a roar). SB reduces the TP gained by the Wyrm during this process.

Give up yet?

We TA from our badass sams to generate hate for the ninjas, rather than feeding a mob pointless tp. Actually, we rarely even have ninjas tanking grands, cause plds(like our one with an aegis) hold hate and tank them much better. LOL@your ninja/drk having to melee grand dragons for hate.

This is a huge misconception I noticed in this thread... NIN/DRK does not need to 'melee with katanas' ever to hold hate, and I in fact discouraged this in a recent NIN/DRK thread on KI. (I don't feel like quoting it, go look for yourself if you wish)

The hate generated just from simply stunning every 23 seconds along with usage of the other abilities/spells available is way more than enough to keep hate strong... Souleater is just an unecessary bonus, and the only times I will ever actually use it and melee on a grand Wyrm is after Horrid Roar. Save maybe Invincible it is the best, bar none, way to get hate back the fastest. I normally will be able to get it back and off of anyone before it even comes close to wearing off. I attack nearly nonstop hitting for 80-110 a swing, averaging something around 2-3k damage a use with the proper support and equipment if I keep it on for all 60 seconds (normally cancel it early).

Even on other HNMs, when I use Souleater it's just for the ability's hate. Using it for any more than that is just overkill, and it uses way too much MP to spam.

On top of all this, TA is kind of useless for the most part since no one really pulls hate until roar. Having to TA on tanks so they can still keep hate is so last year.

That, and I really can't believe you don't allow PLDs or NINs to engage on anything. Capped parrying can reduce damage taken by the tanks significantly (especially in the case of PLD/WARs), as well as making things easier to tank. In either case staying engaged with a staff or even a sword, they would miss a lot. My acc is usually ~5%.

This is only true if you use what I consider an unconventional set up of NIN/DRK to tank tiamat, instead of a much more standard set up of pld/war, pld/nin and nin/war. I could just as easily argue that I tank Tiamat SAM/NIN, do Melee and ws for hate, and thus I need the sash for that subtle blow down.

Sorry but if anything, PLD/WAR is unconventional and substandard on Tiamat (and most of everything else). Again I mean no offense towards PLD/WARs, but it's just another sad truth. I'm really shocked as to how you claimed earlier to have so much more experience than others in endgame with your comments on your linkshell's experiences, and yet some of the comments you've provided make it seem like you're a year behind. I mean, sure, every linkshell has their own way to do things often different from other linkshells, but even then there are certain points that what I believed to be all linkshells are past (like NINs sucking at tanking or taking too much damage, or PLD/WAR onry, or not engaging for parrying, etc).

If you try to pull Tiamat with 10 people that includes a single WHM and a PLD/WAR, or better yet, Cerberus with 8 people and a single PLD/WAR and a WHM, things will go bad fast and you'll most likely wipe. PLD/WAR requires a good deal of support on most higher HNMs, even with Aegis, while PLD/NIN and NIN/whatever require almost no support. On top of this, I'm confident that both PLD/NIN and NIN/DRK generate more hate than PLD/WAR can. You just lose too much hate from getting hit, and Provoke is WEAK enmity compared to spamming cure IVs + Flash and Stun + other JAs/spells.

I've gone almost an hour on a JoL fight spamming Provoke and Ninjutsu and abilities as a NIN/WAR with +40 enmity, and didn't get so much as a single look over the PLD/NIN spamming Cure IV across the alliance and Flash on a 23 second timer while taking almost 0 damage. Provoke hate is just too weak and it detereorates too fast. Only thing that can compete with it IMO is a NIN/DRK, and I really think NIN/DRK + PLD/NIN is the best tanking combination in the game for 99% of the situations.

I also noticed you promote Aegis a lot like it makes PLD/WAR invincible, when sadly the truth is the best thing about Aegis is the -25% damage taken. A simple Koenig shield with enough +shield gear and capped skill can block just as much as Aegis now since they capped the block rate and added Shield Mastery. Even then, the magic damage reduction doesn't compare to a barfira setup.

Get a pld in there to hold much better hate and take less damage

R O F L

Eh, suppose I should clarify, on a hit to hit basis. Ninjas take so much damage and hold such shitty hate, they get chomped once before the grand dragon loses interest in them, and goes back on a pld.

I understand this may be true on your server, but it's definately not really the case. Again I hate to appear to be bragging in any way shape or form, but nothing is really better to support an argument than providing proof from my own personal experiences.

With that in mind.. I'm providing some proof of how NIN's are far from MP sponges as you seem to think they are. I'm just going to link the pictures, I don't want to slow this page down and want to get as far away from the bragging appearance as possible.

Megaflares
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/393/mega28lo.jpg

HNMs1
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5795/faf24uq.jpg

HNMs2
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7168/faith1qm.jpg

Tiamat breath
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/135/drops9tp.jpg

All those are 100% normal and happen all the time, with nothing more than Taco+Defender+normal tank PT buffs+equipment. Most recent screen I haven't uploaded yet is nice too, shows Ix'Mnk's hundred fist hitting for 10-25 a hit with bracelets out.

2) Ruke needs to flame Map's ass out of the water.

For the record, if I wasn't as bored as I was now there's no way I would've got involved in this. I usually prefer to stay away from the flameriffic threads unless I'm in a bad mood or get rubbed the wrong way by something that was said.

As far as the whole Map and Sash thing goes, I really couldn't care less honestly. Personally I _do_ utilize a Haste build on my SAM, and honestly _do_ think it's the best equipment build a SAM can use. Swinging a ~230 delay GK in a standard exp PT for 17 TP a hit gets you TP extremely fast for a lot of damage output, and while I wouldn't use it an HNM I'd use it almost everywhere else.

But, based on what I've read I do think that for the most part Map provokes this all onto himself more often than it's put on him by others. He started it in this thread, and he seems to start it in a majority of the other threads he posts in as well (nothing beats the iHavesomethingyoudont iPod type picture he posted with him wearing a sash). So I really have no sympathy for it, he's just digging his own grave.

Wasn't the first NIN/DRK that Kisada (sp?) dude on quetzacoatl?

Yeah, he used it way before I did. I'm pretty sure people refer to me often when speaking of NIN/DRK just because I publicized it more. Btw your sig is the best.


EDIT: Nice novel this turned into, but hey it was something to occupy time.

EDIT2: Bored again.