Defending Ring (lolsash)

[Beave]

Don't get me wrong, Aegis is completely awesome so don't let this discussion talk you out of it But some cases, even for short amounts of time, it seems like just as good of an idea if not better to use kaiser.

[Heian]

I never really put thought into this..

But I suppose Fafnir, Nidhogg, Aspi, Vrtra, Tiamat/Jorgy on the ground, would all be good examples where (IMO) Kaiser's enmity may be better than the -25% taken. Could always macro for Shield Bash in between time.

Well for Aspi/Vrtra/Jormy I'd understand but for Fafhogg, I think the wing spam is the only thing that makes it "difficult" imo. With Tiamat, as a Taru PLD, my MP is more then enough to hold hate

btw, I do have a Kaiser shield and working on Aegis atm... this little disscussion is making me all "bleh" about spending alot to upgrade it; ;

Its all about Epeen not about how well it works.

[aurik]

Wow.. I looked at this thread last night and it was fine at like 5 pages, had a feeling this would be a time bomb though. Just got back from a really annoying day at work and I'm bored out of my mind waiting around in sky.. Read all of it, so I'm going to get some frustrations out with arguing on the points. :D This'll be really long.


First... Kind of surprised people still argue over NIN vs PLD on Defending Ring. Does everyone forget that -10% Magic Damage taken is really just as good as if not better than -10% Physical Damage taken (yes the ring does both, btw), and that like 90% of the damage that tanks take on HNMs now is magic based? Not to mention there's a lot more gear that's easier to get with -damage taken as opposed to -magic taken.

This is all assuming that PLD/NINs are used of course, which at this point I'm 100% confident that a skilled and properly equiped PLD/NIN will not only hold hate better than a PLD/WAR, but also take significantly less damage in addition to reducing the amount of outside MP spent from otherwise necessary curing to other alliance members. Not to brag at all, but I would think my view on this is pretty accurate as well, seeing as how I've tanked beside just about every kind of tank countless times in the past years.

Either way, I'm certain NIN/WAR can potentially take less damage than any PLD could on normal hits, so even when you look at physical damage it's the same boat. It's no offense at all meant to PLDs, and it is definately broken, but it's true.

Tiamat or Jorm with summoners using pld/nin + nin/drk. Ninjas engage with katanas on the ground to generate hate (especially with souleater after a roar). SB reduces the TP gained by the Wyrm during this process.

Give up yet?

We TA from our badass sams to generate hate for the ninjas, rather than feeding a mob pointless tp. Actually, we rarely even have ninjas tanking grands, cause plds(like our one with an aegis) hold hate and tank them much better. LOL@your ninja/drk having to melee grand dragons for hate.

This is a huge misconception I noticed in this thread... NIN/DRK does not need to 'melee with katanas' ever to hold hate, and I in fact discouraged this in a recent NIN/DRK thread on KI. (I don't feel like quoting it, go look for yourself if you wish)

The hate generated just from simply stunning every 23 seconds along with usage of the other abilities/spells available is way more than enough to keep hate strong... Souleater is just an unecessary bonus, and the only times I will ever actually use it and melee on a grand Wyrm is after Horrid Roar. Save maybe Invincible it is the best, bar none, way to get hate back the fastest. I normally will be able to get it back and off of anyone before it even comes close to wearing off. I attack nearly nonstop hitting for 80-110 a swing, averaging something around 2-3k damage a use with the proper support and equipment if I keep it on for all 60 seconds (normally cancel it early).

Even on other HNMs, when I use Souleater it's just for the ability's hate. Using it for any more than that is just overkill, and it uses way too much MP to spam.

On top of all this, TA is kind of useless for the most part since no one really pulls hate until roar. Having to TA on tanks so they can still keep hate is so last year.

That, and I really can't believe you don't allow PLDs or NINs to engage on anything. Capped parrying can reduce damage taken by the tanks significantly (especially in the case of PLD/WARs), as well as making things easier to tank. In either case staying engaged with a staff or even a sword, they would miss a lot. My acc is usually ~5%.

This is only true if you use what I consider an unconventional set up of NIN/DRK to tank tiamat, instead of a much more standard set up of pld/war, pld/nin and nin/war. I could just as easily argue that I tank Tiamat SAM/NIN, do Melee and ws for hate, and thus I need the sash for that subtle blow down.

Sorry but if anything, PLD/WAR is unconventional and substandard on Tiamat (and most of everything else). Again I mean no offense towards PLD/WARs, but it's just another sad truth. I'm really shocked as to how you claimed earlier to have so much more experience than others in endgame with your comments on your linkshell's experiences, and yet some of the comments you've provided make it seem like you're a year behind. I mean, sure, every linkshell has their own way to do things often different from other linkshells, but even then there are certain points that what I believed to be all linkshells are past (like NINs sucking at tanking or taking too much damage, or PLD/WAR onry, or not engaging for parrying, etc).

If you try to pull Tiamat with 10 people that includes a single WHM and a PLD/WAR, or better yet, Cerberus with 8 people and a single PLD/WAR and a WHM, things will go bad fast and you'll most likely wipe. PLD/WAR requires a good deal of support on most higher HNMs, even with Aegis, while PLD/NIN and NIN/whatever require almost no support. On top of this, I'm confident that both PLD/NIN and NIN/DRK generate more hate than PLD/WAR can. You just lose too much hate from getting hit, and Provoke is WEAK enmity compared to spamming cure IVs + Flash and Stun + other JAs/spells.

I've gone almost an hour on a JoL fight spamming Provoke and Ninjutsu and abilities as a NIN/WAR with +40 enmity, and didn't get so much as a single look over the PLD/NIN spamming Cure IV across the alliance and Flash on a 23 second timer while taking almost 0 damage. Provoke hate is just too weak and it detereorates too fast. Only thing that can compete with it IMO is a NIN/DRK, and I really think NIN/DRK + PLD/NIN is the best tanking combination in the game for 99% of the situations.

I also noticed you promote Aegis a lot like it makes PLD/WAR invincible, when sadly the truth is the best thing about Aegis is the -25% damage taken. A simple Koenig shield with enough +shield gear and capped skill can block just as much as Aegis now since they capped the block rate and added Shield Mastery. Even then, the magic damage reduction doesn't compare to a barfira setup.

Get a pld in there to hold much better hate and take less damage

R O F L

Eh, suppose I should clarify, on a hit to hit basis. Ninjas take so much damage and hold such shitty hate, they get chomped once before the grand dragon loses interest in them, and goes back on a pld.

I understand this may be true on your server, but it's definately not really the case. Again I hate to appear to be bragging in any way shape or form, but nothing is really better to support an argument than providing proof from my own personal experiences.

With that in mind.. I'm providing some proof of how NIN's are far from MP sponges as you seem to think they are. I'm just going to link the pictures, I don't want to slow this page down and want to get as far away from the bragging appearance as possible.

Megaflares
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/393/mega28lo.jpg

HNMs1
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5795/faf24uq.jpg

HNMs2
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/7168/faith1qm.jpg

Tiamat breath
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/135/drops9tp.jpg

All those are 100% normal and happen all the time, with nothing more than Taco+Defender+normal tank PT buffs+equipment. Most recent screen I haven't uploaded yet is nice too, shows Ix'Mnk's hundred fist hitting for 10-25 a hit with bracelets out.

2) Ruke needs to flame Map's ass out of the water.

For the record, if I wasn't as bored as I was now there's no way I would've got involved in this. I usually prefer to stay away from the flameriffic threads unless I'm in a bad mood or get rubbed the wrong way by something that was said.

As far as the whole Map and Sash thing goes, I really couldn't care less honestly. Personally I _do_ utilize a Haste build on my SAM, and honestly _do_ think it's the best equipment build a SAM can use. Swinging a ~230 delay GK in a standard exp PT for 17 TP a hit gets you TP extremely fast for a lot of damage output, and while I wouldn't use it an HNM I'd use it almost everywhere else.

But, based on what I've read I do think that for the most part Map provokes this all onto himself more often than it's put on him by others. He started it in this thread, and he seems to start it in a majority of the other threads he posts in as well (nothing beats the iHavesomethingyoudont iPod type picture he posted with him wearing a sash). So I really have no sympathy for it, he's just digging his own grave.

Wasn't the first NIN/DRK that Kisada (sp?) dude on quetzacoatl?

Yeah, he used it way before I did. I'm pretty sure people refer to me often when speaking of NIN/DRK just because I publicized it more. Btw your sig is the best.


EDIT: Nice novel this turned into, but hey it was something to occupy time.

EDIT2: Bored again.

Update your LJ!

[Ryko]

and for those of you wondering, I am leveling a job that the sash it good for....corsair

Wait what?

[RKenshin]

I hate you for quoting all that and writing three words... lol

But yeah, won't have time to until a free weekend, and haven't had one in a long time. Weekdays are out of the question now, working full time over the summer.

[Epical]

Wow... just... wow. Russta and Ruke need to have babies <jackbauervoice> NOW </jackbauervoice>.

So, cross 2 and 3 off my list, we just need wafik and the bannings and we're good to go.

Aurik also brings up a good point... update your damn LJ. =P

[RKenshin]

[TomodachiF]

=o, I don't agree that NIN can take less damage than PLD when shadows are down but that's just me. Before the shield patches maybe, but I think with shadows down and pimped NIN and a pimped PLD with full -dmg reduction won't take less than a PLD tanking with shield and a correct setup and maybe even Earth Staff PLD's.

[derzoll]

Oh god, i thought it'd never get back on topic. Someone quoted me and asked me a question back on like page 5, but after reading all this crap i'm too exhausted too look what it was.

However i agree with everything Suiram has said.

[Ichthyos]

Hey RK, good novel. We can always count on you for good tanking posts.

Just wondering, are there good numbers from a test somewhere regarding shield block rates? Specifically, I'm wondering about shield mastery, the cap, shield types, and AGI.

I'm not a shield user, just interested academically. =)

[Grey Jorildyn]

So I also came back a couple hours later to see this thread's page count inflated for some unknown reason (thanks for pointing that out Ich!)...

First of all, I'm the PLD with the Aegis in Map's HNM LS.
Secondly, I'm the NIN that would've gotten the sash had their been some silly need-before-greed policy in SeaShell.
Third, one of my best online friends is the DRK that randomed against Map for the sash (because they were in the same tier).

Frankly, I don't care that Map got it. In fact I'm happy for him. Why do people always bring this up like it's some big deal? Do you know people on Titan don't even know that Map has Ninurta's Sash? People in his own linkshell even? You all sound like a bunch of babies whining over how a SAM got some stupid belt. Who cares? His own friends don't! Just leave it be already. And also, who cares if it should've gone to a Ninja? It's not as if that is the only job that can use it. Move on already...

Oh, and defending rings are nice

Edit: Good post RK. PLD/WAR is indeed far from invincible and a large waste of resources on Grand Dragons. NIN/DRK is a very good tanker for something like Tiamat, but my LS does not prefer to reinvent the wheel when it comes to something so easy as this fight. We use PLD/NIN + NIN/WAR and only the first night I got the Aegis did I try PLD/WAR (by request). I was able to keep hate much stronger than the others, but required me to be very delicate. I told many that PLD/NIN would still be more useful overall. Also, I disagree that Kaiser Shield can block for as much dmg as the Aegis and that the magic damage reduction is clearly the best part. Shield size defines the block proc rate directly from all my testing, and the Aegis seems to block as a small shield while the Kaiser is classed as a Medium shield. Shield skill does not seem to help block proc more in my experiences, it helps further reduce damage. Perhaps I am mistaken though ^^;

[Lockecole]

Wow..how did the whole "I've never been outparsed in an EXP PT" get overlooked. Who the fuck are you EXPing with if your SAM is outDDing ANY good endgame WAR,NIN,MNK? Seriously...if your LS is so pimped out with Ridills and E.Bodies, I guess you dont EXP with them.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y26...envy/parry.jpg

Congrats. Too bad your LS doesnt let you engage wyrms.



P.S. I'm proud of my title, it keeps me in check. :wink:

[Grey Jorildyn]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y26...envy/parry.jpg

Congrats. Too bad your LS doesnt let you engage wyrms.



P.S. I'm proud of my title, it keeps me in check. :wink:

Hmm I am ground leader and I don't recall there being any rules (I wrote most of them?) against engaging wyrms the tanks just prefer not to for whatever reason.

[Lockecole]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y26...envy/parry.jpg

Congrats. Too bad your LS doesnt let you engage wyrms.



P.S. I'm proud of my title, it keeps me in check. :wink:

Hmm I am ground leader and I don't recall there being any rules (I wrote most of them?) against engaging wyrms the tanks just prefer not to for whatever reason.

I just dont get the reasoning behind it, engaging with an Earth Staff will yield next to no TP at all through the entire fight. Considering A)Odds are you'll be hitting at 5%, and B)90% of those hits will end up hitting for 0 and an add effect, which gives no TP. Ontop of that I find it easier to blink tank a mob while engaged, and easier to stand in the correct area, when you need to move quickly for a TA, or to reallign the tanks for wyrms when someone gets drawn in.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I just dont get the reasoning behind it, engaging with an Earth Staff will yield next to no TP at all through the entire fight. Considering A)Odds are you'll be hitting at 5%, and B)90% of those hits will end up hitting for 0 and an add effect, which gives no TP. Ontop of that I find it easier to blink tank a mob while engaged, and easier to stand in the correct area, when you need to move quickly for a TA, or to reallign the tanks for wyrms when someone gets drawn in.

I just said there is no rule against it. Furthermore, I agree with you.

On our first Cerberus and Hydra I told tanks to engage for parry chances. I personally choose not to engage on dragons for a few reasons although that does not mean I don't recognize the benefits to doing so.

In dragon's aery it is usually very laggy (problem on every server? XD) and disenaging for sleep can get messy when trying to cast cure, flash, etc. On something like a grand dragon (Jorm/Tiamat in particular), I don't like being engage because of the repositioning ocassionally needed when you get to close to a wall or something. I find it easier to run out and back when not engaged because you run slower engaged. Also I play on pad so I don't use keyboard and it's pain to for me.

I hope this settles your mind

[Sylvrdragon]

PSHHHHH

Defending Ring is so 2005. You have PhalanxII now.

[TomodachiF]

Yea, that was a point I forgot to bring up(though I don't have Aegis), the damage reduced by it because of the size imo would make it still better than Koenig/Kaiser blocking along with the other bonuses mentioned.

[Lockecole]

I just dont get the reasoning behind it, engaging with an Earth Staff will yield next to no TP at all through the entire fight. Considering A)Odds are you'll be hitting at 5%, and B)90% of those hits will end up hitting for 0 and an add effect, which gives no TP. Ontop of that I find it easier to blink tank a mob while engaged, and easier to stand in the correct area, when you need to move quickly for a TA, or to reallign the tanks for wyrms when someone gets drawn in.

I just said there is no rule against it. Furthermore, I agree with you.

On our first Cerberus and Hydra I told tanks to engage for parry chances. I personally choose not to engage on dragons for a few reasons although that does not mean I don't recognize the benefits to doing so.

In dragon's aery it is usually very laggy (problem on every server? XD) and disenaging for sleep can get messy when trying to cast cure, flash, etc. On something like a grand dragon (Jorm/Tiamat in particular), I don't like being engage because of the repositioning ocassionally needed when you get to close to a wall or something. I find it easier to run out and back when not engaged because you run slower engaged. Also I play on pad so I don't use keyboard and it's pain to for me.

I hope this settles your mind

I'm mostly in agreeance with just about everything you say. I just really wonder if Map pays attention to what everyone else does while he sits in a corner and meditates. ('~')

[Grey Jorildyn]

I'm mostly in agreeance with just about everything you say. I just really wonder if Map pays attention to what everyone else does while he sits in a corner and meditates. ('~')

He is a good man and a good leader. Don't encourage him to flame you though, his flaming skill > my parrying. He deserves everything he has and has earned it. On Titan I could consider the foremost authority on all things Samurai, but not tanking. There are others to seek for that kind of help.

[Genosync]

I just really wonder if Map pays attention to what everyone else does while he sits in a corner and meditates while wearing his Ninurta Sash.

fix'd

In other news, the other day some idiot without a tank job was the first person in his linkshell to get a Defending Ring! And I'm too lazy to read the rest of the thread to see if that shit's already been discussed.

lolnightwind.