Attachments?

[Elmer the Pointy]

I don't have official parsings, but from what I saw Smoke Screen was pretty helpful. Kintoki dodged a good amount of hits when I put Darks up, and on the flip side I could see his accuracy was dropping.
You're right that the effect is tough to really gauge, but it sure didn't hurt

Also, doofy says he beats it really fast too. At first glance I chalk that up to being a Taru. Lower STR, lower SC damage... maybe the Fanto has high VIT. I'm not sure but even with Carbonara and lots of Acc equip I seem to miss sometimes and have low damage.

Slow and steady wins the race, I suppose

Tomorrow I go in again with this strategy. I'll see how I hold up against multiple bad summons if I get unlucky.

[Toth]

I am in awe at the stupidity of ZAM posters. I start a discussion about PUP tank and get flamed. What a disgrace that forum is.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...7;num=4;page=1[/quote]

[jiang]

I am in awe at the stupidity of ZAM posters. I start a discussion about PUP tank and get flamed. What a disgrace that forum is.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...7;num=4;page=1

Holy shit, you got zammed on the zam boards.

[miokomioko]

I am in awe at the stupidity of ZAM posters. I start a discussion about PUP tank and get flamed. What a disgrace that forum is.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.h...7;num=4;page=1

Holy shit, you got zammed on the zam boards.

What a topsy turvy world we live in.

P.S. I tanked Dhalmels in Bibiki Bay on PUP/WAR when our PLD had to go and our RDM was left with like @1000.

IT. DID. NOT. WORK.

[Elmer the Pointy]

Alright! I just did the ENM and beat it. Got an Eraser too. I was really really hoping for it after ridin' Spinnaz in Mamook the other night and being constantly Slow'd.

It was a really exciting fight too, I got a Harley boy then a Valoredge before getting a Mage bot. This fight seems like a perfect one to reference since it shows how to (successfully this time) overcome multiple bad summons.

[doofy]

Pup tanking = no

Nothing against Enaru, or whoever it was that first tried to tank in their wonderful 5-6k/hr xp party and managed to pull it off, but this job is not a tank. Trying to make this point, or just about any other point, on the Zam forums is a lost cause so I wouldnt waste your time. Half the people who reply dont have a 75, and the ones that do will argue that "AF @ lvl75 is fine, stop being an elitist....etc.". The original puptank crap was also tagged with the "and I've seen JPs do it" so it was taken as gospel on the Zam forums.

If you were to rewind the game 2 years this job might have had some merit as a tank considering anything even near 10k/hr required 4 RNGs + BRD. Endgame would have still been a joke, but it might have been something to pick from the lfg pool. Right now I hope SE isnt paying attention to this and completely crap out the job by trying to make it a tank. JSE with +3 VIT / +hmp...Merry Xmas!

Tanking by modifying the VE frame or manipulating the maneuver/elemental frame limits, now thats a whole different area and one I do wish they'd consider. Fixing the VE frame would involve fixing the whole def/vit/etc. issue so Im sure it wont get touched, still holding out hope for the maneuver/elemental modifications though.

-Vyzrael (Asura)

[Elmer the Pointy]

P.S. I tanked Dhalmels in Bibiki Bay on PUP/WAR when our PLD had to go and our RDM was left with like @1000.

IT. DID. NOT. WORK.

I think we all really want the same thing as PUP: a way to have fun and contribute well in parties.
We need to experiement with different tactics and such to find the best way, so trying out tanking is a good thing.

but it doesn't really work.

You're right, Mioko, and I get a little frustrated too seeing thread after thread praising 3-4k an hour as proof that PUP can tank.
If PUP can tank, MNK can tank... more HP, Chakra, Counter, Dodge, Focus.
If PUP can tank, THF can tank... more Evasion, Sneak Attack if the mob turns away, various status effect bolts

Puppetmaster can "tank" in that any job can be configured to hold hate and get punched in the face.

And don't get me started on the "Japanese do it so ...." argument.
Almost every party I make is with Japanese and they DO NOT tank with PUP ever ever ever. I can't count the amount of times a JP player joins my party and says it's their first time with a PUP wwwwwwwwwwww

But yea, that's my little vent because to post on Alla would fall on deaf ears. They are just really defensive about it.

So for Toth's topic I just left a small little note that if Puppetmaster were really a GOOD tank we wouldn't be seeing a new thread for every single instance someone tries it out and has it succeed.

[Reynard]

toth, you didnt start a conversation, you were trying to end one, and came off sounding elitist like you were sullying yourself by trying to enlighten the unwashed Zam masses. Shortly after looking like a tool for flaming a PUP with their job less than 60 from buying attchments off the Auction House. (You yourself bought some of the attchments off the auction house, who cares what your lvl is if its for sale). Maybe PUP tanking doesn't work, but what the hell did you expect?

[Toth]

I expected an intelligent reply to my post. I did not get any. The whole thing with Poof was not the issue. Read back and you will see my problem was with Poof buying the attachments, not any lvl 40 PUP. I bought one whopping attachment from the AH and I was lvl 66. Again, thats not the issue. I always avoided ZAM for the noobish reason and I wanted some answers. I got nothing but flames so I am an idiot for trying

[Elmer the Pointy]

So I put up Puppetmaster ENM 4 and I noticed there's a new PUP ENM video on YouTube.
Good, right? The more examples the better.

Oh... my god....
Toth, you would totally hate this guy. He had the easiest, luckiest ENM run in history, and the guy is completely beside himself with self-praise.

Here's his description:

Im made this vid so upcoming pup's can see how easy it is to get sevral millions in the game solo ^^;

The best is when he just lets his robot die and starts tanking. Then he opens his inventory to reveal three Hi-Potion+3s. Three!!

[Vobent]

That was horrible, my eyes.

[Toth]

Hehe nice videos Elmer. Did you mean the video with that guy who starts with an S (Sinitarium or something)? Well, he won the items fair and square and he is free to do with it as he pleases. Attachment prices are now down to 1 million on Fairy so good luck to him selling. He would not have won that ENM if it called anything but SS or SW though.

[Elmer the Pointy]

He would not have won that ENM if it called anything but SS or SW though.

That's just what I was getting at. The perceived simplicity of the whole battle. It's just funny how confident he is now.

He's in for more of a rude awakening than a BLM in Beseiged. * He was less prepared for success than a Puppetmaster tanking. * If the enemy didn't summon a Stormwalker he would have been dropped faster than a piece of BST AF2. * Next time he goes in, he'll be more disappointed than SMN hoping to deal damage in a party. * His next video will be called "How to Lose a Guy in 10 seconds". * When he tries to enter, the message box will say "Please reconsider." * His robot will fall apart faster than grunion's credibility. * After that fight, his puppet tried to get the Tactical Processor equipped on him. * FFXI doesn't have the FPS to capture how fast he'll die in video. * Sage Sundi will see the first thing he can't blame on PS2 limitations. * When he goes to warp to MineShaft, the Goblin will hand him life insurance. * Next time he goes he'll be in more trouble than a BST lotting on E. Body.

...

Yay, someone found my dead body. I'm done now.

P.S. I'm not trying to be mean I'm glad he won. Just jokes, folks 8)

[Vobent]

^win
best post

[Toth]

Elmer won the thread :D

[Secksi]

He would not have won that ENM if it called anything but SS or SW though.

That's just what I was getting at. The perceived simplicity of the whole battle. It's just funny how confident he is now.

He's in for more of a rude awakening than a BLM in Beseiged. * He was less prepared for success than a Puppetmaster tanking. * If the enemy didn't summon a Stormwalker he would have been dropped faster than a piece of BST AF2. * Next time he goes in, he'll be more disappointed than SMN hoping to deal damage in a party. * His next video will be called "How to Lose a Guy in 10 seconds". * When he tries to enter, the message box will say "Please reconsider." * His robot will fall apart faster than grunion's credibility. * After that fight, his puppet tried to get the Tactical Processor equipped on him. * FFXI doesn't have the FPS to capture how fast he'll die in video. * Sage Sundi will see the first thing he can't blame on PS2 limitations. * When he goes to warp to MineShaft, the Goblin will hand him life insurance. * Next time he goes he'll be in more trouble than a BST lotting on E. Body.

...

Yay, someone found my dead body. I'm done now.

P.S. I'm not trying to be mean I'm glad he won. Just jokes, folks 8)

LOL

[Odd]

i'd say 50% is generous... i've been doing it religiously every 5 days when timer is up since the ENM was added and have gotten 2 drops (lost 3 times i believe... today mannequin got benediction and managed to get off an accrubalista > 300%tp raging fists which floored me w/ about 800 hp >.<

/sigh

[Toth]

Ah, the last few days have been fun watching the superdefensive ZAMers refute any points made against their hallowed opinion of PUP being a good tank. PUP tanking certainly seems to be in for those 4k an hour parties. And yet...the people advocating it and want to try haven't even hit 50 on their PUPs Oh well, it certainly seems like an interesting way to get 75. Kudos to Elmer for complete ownage in the thread.

Edit: Finally! Equalizer drop. The streak is broken. Its a message from SE to start PUP tanking!

[miokomioko]

I haven't gotten a drop from this ENM in almost a month.

Almost a perfect 50% drop rate.

[Toth]

So I braved the flames of ZAM to find out why PUP tanking can supposedly work. Here's what I found (caution: lots of text coming)

My argument:
1) Defense Capabilities
PUP has very limited access to strong gear that would offer high defense. Unlike WAR or PLD or even SAM to an extent, a PUP will take a severe beating from mobs with strong attack/double attack. NINs tank by using their high evasion and shadows to negate damage taken. They also have access to enough -damage taken gear to reach around 30% (Arhat gear + Earth staff). A PUP has nothing but one evasion bonus skill and access to several evasion items. However, so does a MNK and they have the same evasion skill. Plus they have abilities to increase their evasion (Dodge for example). A PUP has none.

2) Enmity Control
This is the most important aspect of a tank: the ability to generate enough hate to keep the focus on the tank. A PUP has none. Though C Skill is not nearly as crippling (even at 75, I do fine damage with sushi on), the power is not there to keep the mob's attention. Provoke does have its limits. I read how a lvl 64 PUP keep hate on Colibris. Reading closer, I found that he keep hate because he had two party members SATAing off him. Unfortunately, that right there negates the entire argument he was making. ANY job that is being dual SATAed on WILL be tanking. I fail to see how a MNK or SAM or even a BLU could lose hate like that. Sadly, any of those three jobs would be much more suited for the task too. Third Eye, Counterstance, or some effective blue magic skills would be more useful and less MP draining. To go even further, MNKs tend to dual tank in whatever people they are in. Why? Because of their damage output. They have the ability to generate enough hate. PUP cannot match that with 300-400 raging fists.

3) The Automaton
I left them for last because basically they are not a huge factor in the tanking process. Now, an automaton can tank. That is true. I have Serenade tank the ENM battle every time for example. Being successful with it several times, I see how it can work. However the Mannequin is only EM. On EM and some Ts, she can do very well. However, anything higher than T will destroy the automaton in a few hits, even with Repair up. Imps at Caedarva Mire hit Serenade for 200+ damage as Valoredge for example. It gets worse for higher level mobs. Now, if the PUP is the tank and the maton is the support, it still fails to justify the idea of PUP tanks. With the tact processor or not, the Automaton cannot heal you fast enough. In the time it takes it to recast Cure IV you will be at probably half of your HP bar. That means the WHM has to spam cures and generate hate. Too much hate and you have one hurting WHM. Then you or your automaton has to Voke and take back hate. Then the process starts all over again.

Rebuttals:
1) "Rushing to LV75 (ed note: in 6 months >.>), isn't exactly too much of a thrill no more, becuase it doesn't really mean you know what you're doing....Evasion is your friend, though you're right Monks can boost theirs with Dodge, while we can't. Yet at the same time we're not relying simply on Evasion alone, a series of flashes, not spammed but a constant hate free system of flashes, to mix with other debuffs that need to be used such as Blind, Paralyze and in my personal expierence? Bio."

2) "If you read the forums like you claim to have you would realize PUP is not a defensive tank but rather a Evasion tank with strong healing and Flash support from the Maton. PUP does have good natural EVA, a natural EVA trait, and access to some pretty decent EVA gear."

3) "You should start a forum called "How to turn the most entertaining job in the game into a boring way to make cookies. Allakhazam FTW! "

4) "Can the job hold hate against the DD? Can the job hold hate against the healers? Can the job keep itself alive without draining party resources such as MP pools? Can the job be dependable enough that between-fight resting is eliminated or at least kept to a minimal?

Now for Puppetmaster. All 4 tests are again passed. Pup passes condition #2 easily since party healers are spared the task of many cures due to the puppet itself casting a great portion of these. The total number of cures needed to begin with is greatly reduced from the evasion traits of the Pup combined with the constant flashing from the puppet. Because of this, Pup also passes condition #3 easily since the MP drain from the healers is minimal. Condition #4 is also not a problem because of attachments such as mana converter, mana tank, and damage gauge. This combined with the ability to use oils for regen keeps the puppet ready for action. The condition the Pup seems weakest with is holding hate against DD. The same way that any decent DD could rip hate off a ninja at the start of a fight, the same is true with pup. However, holding hate against DD is still easily accomplished, as others have attested to, for both ninjas and puppetmasters."

5) "healing a puptank is.. not fun for me. bascially i have to babysit the puptank, and cannot rest MP mid fight like i can with a NIN or PLD tank. one or two strong hits can floor a puptank, and if i'm sitting, i just cannot stand and get a cure off fast enough."

6) "They aren't the best tank but they CAN tank. 2k/hr is better than sitting around waiting for an invite and never getting one. That's one of the points a solo bst makes for soloing instead of partying. There's no wait and you still get XP faster than if you wait hours with no invite. If that concept is not good enough for you, don't worry about it then. If you don't think a PUP tank is viable at endgame, that doesn't change the fact that is can tank at other levels. There are mobs a PLD have trouble tanking (i.e. flan) and there's mobs many NIN's refuse to tank (i.e. mnk type mobs). Every tank has strengths and weaknesses and PUP is no different. The only difference PUP has at this moment is that we don't know the true limits of what it can/cannot tank."

7) "Whoop-dee-do then. PUP by it's nature defies categorization. The PUP-tank will become sought after in some situations, and parties may (*gasp*) break again from the now-standard lolBurn party to one that would accomodate PUP-tanks. Vana'diel is not a library. Melvil Dewey never designed his system to include FFXI job classes."

8) Poof came on too and said, "You have to understand that Toth is a server renowned /emo troll. He's the same way on our server with his shouts and insults to "newbies" (ed. who? oh, her). Just ignore it >< sheesh. He's only 14 and he thinks that he gets a job to 75 and he's the leading expert, etc. He only has like three jobs to 75 and I think some, 300 job levels total."

9) "My stand. A PUP is not an efficient tank because a PUP has to rely on other party members to function properly as one. Note here that I'm clearly stating it is not an EFFICIENT tank. By convention alot of jobs can tank at many levels, like a WAR - but there reaches a point where their efficiency as a tank drops to the point where it affects the effectiveness of the party. I'm also not saying that PUP cannot tank because SE never intended them to, but the fact is that a PUP is not sufficient as a tank in its own right. I'd very much like for SE to give PUP more things to allow it to become an efficient tank, but as of yet it is clearly not.
The problem of the 'Can PUP tank' issue is that different people are viewing it with different scopes. For one, a PUP is a situational tank at best. It can only tank certain mobs, at certain level, with certain job as party members. To some, this is good enough to qualify it as a tank. For me I think this is not so, which is why I have put forth my view.

10) "The thing is though, a WHM can currently tank better than a PUP. Between Stoneskin, Utsusemi, and Flash, they'll liek, nevar geet hit!!! -_- You know why we don't see WHMs or RDMs go tanking? Cause it's bad exp. For a PUP, you might think 2-4k/hour is good, but I don't know many RDMs, WHMs, BRDs, or even DRGs, that will find that acceptable 50+. You might get the bottom of the barrel, the people with gimped equip and bad knowledge, you could convince them to let tank sure. You're putting PUP in a position that almost any job in the game could tank in. That does not mean PUP is a tank."

11) "You asked for evidence, you asked for people to prove that pup can tank, and Enaru and others like him have shown over the last few weeks that, given the right set up, skill level, and camps, pup can make an excellent tank, almost on par with a nin or pld (though certainly not as desirable). You may not want to admit it, you may not want to even hear it, but the people of this board have shown that in the right situation a pup tank is completely viable."

Here is a link for 'successful' PUP tanking parties -- http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html ... =18;page=1

There's a bit more but thats the gist of what the current thoughts are on ZAM. I didnt think starting a new thread here would be useful so I'll post here. Any comments on these thoughts from more experienced PUPs?

P.S Elmer, you owned the thread!