Attachments?

[Amadeo]

I also removed Inhibitor to test his tp usage in SC's. And He always used Chimera Ripper after Howling Fists. Never saw a String Clipper once.

With or without Inhibitor, he always seems to follow my WS's with Ripper. And then uses String Clipper if I don't have TP.

[Transpec]

It was in reference to your comment about Howling > Clipper = Distortion Elmer. The Maton will not use Clipper after HF with the inhibitor for reasons beyond me.

With or without Inhibitor, he always seems to follow my WS's with Ripper.

Did you have thunder up? He can close Distortion if you time things right and have fire man. up.

[Elmer the Pointy]

I Sha-Zam'd this post and wanted to stick it here as well. It's something I discovered that may show PUP's Job Traits are better than we thought (according to Alla and FFwiki)
============================================

WARNING: You don't have to immediately take this as fact. It's something I found from a reliable source that I believe warrants further investigation and testing! Don't flip out on me OK????

So I get PUP questions to answer at times and I always try to be accurate when helping new PUPs. I wanted to check different sources on Maneuver effects and uses and so on...

I check a number of JP sites and I went back to this one dedicated to PUP. It's a very good database of info and is very accurate and detailed. Tonight, while researching a bit, I noticed something I hadn't before.

Apparently, contrary to Zam and ffwiki, PUP gets THREE Martial Arts traits, Evasion traits and Resist Slow Traits. The chart looks like this:


Resist Slow.....10
Evasion Up.....20.....Evasion+10
Martial Arts 1.....25.....Delay 400
Evasion Up.....40.....Evasion+22
Martial Arts 2.....50.....Delay 380
Resist Slow.....50
Evasion Up.....60.....Evasion+35
Resist Slow.....70.....
Martial Arts 3.....75.....Delay 360


This would be great if it's true. It makes sense to me because:

1) I see Resist Slow messages often enough to know there's some strength behind the trait

2) From all the soloing and testing I do, I could see there being more than 1 measly Evasion trait

3) 3 Martial Arts would put us at half the bonus of MNK, who have 6 Martial Arts traits (This fact coming straight from a guide I purchased in Japan)

It always seemed silly to me that PUP would only get one of each. This setup makes a lot more sense.

So let's all take a look at this and do a little testing. I'm sure we can figure it out pretty quickly. I know I'll be trying to ^-^



Link for Japanophiles:
http://zenkeishisei.com/modules/bwik...C4%A4%A4%A4%C6

[Elmer the Pointy]

You know, I like some of the PUP discussion on Zam... but freaking Zammerz...

Even though I question the veracity of the chart myself like 50 times in my post, the first guy to respond says

Saying "I got this off a JP chart" doesn't make it Holy Writ. Believe it or not, not all Japanese sources are gold-plated.

I don't know what's worse... the "JP ONRY I hate America" NA players, or the "I have to hate everything JP because they have a reputation for being good" NA players.

When the hell is the Second Coming of Yin dammit... we need a cleansing

[DeadLegend]

When the hell is the Second Coming of Yin dammit... we need a cleansing

I saw him browsing the FF12 section yesterday :O

[Toth]

Interesting stuff.

And what did you expect of the ZAM boards? They are too busy sucking Enaru's pathetic dick. (Look at me! The incredible lvl 70 (for a month now?) PUP and you rated down my posts Rate me up please ^^ )

[Seyrr]

Only level 21 so far, but having fun with PUP, and I like to try to understand the advanced bits even if I can't really do much with them yet.

I'm wondering what this does for subjob selection. I had been thinking of going /MNK for the improved Martial Arts traits, using the subjob latent items to improve them and hand-to-hand skill more. But if this is true, then it seems like PUP gets traits that are just as good much more often, no? Let me see... assuming Elmer's listing is correct:

*1-24, no Martial Arts, /MNK has Martial Arts I
25-31, Martial Arts I, /MNK has Martial Arts I
*32-50, Martial Arts I, /MNK has Martial Arts II
51-61, Martial Arts II, /MNK has Martial Arts II
*62-74, Martial Arts II, /MNK has Martial Arts III
75, Martial Arts III, /MNK has Martial Arts III

Asterisked level ranges are ones where /MNK has superior Martial Arts. Not nearly as much as before, obviously, and it only improves it by one (unless you get a Wrestler's Mantle, in which case add I to all the /MNK ones.)

Granted, as I've mentioned, I'm still new, so maybe /MNK wasn't that great an option before. But it seems like less of one now. Someone with actual knowledge and experience care to comment and enlighten silly me?

[Elmer the Pointy]

EDIT: Test results
=======================================

OK, it's time for some test results.

I took a PUP 48 friend, Degaade, into Diorama. First, I decided to eyeball our punching speeds. This was to establish some basic justification for testing. If we could see a difference, then there is something there worth investigating. From just a few attack rounds, we could both easily see the attack speeds of 75PUP and 48PUP were different.

See for yourself: http://www.cactuarsensei.com/ffxivid/punchspeed.wmv

Now that we established this idea of multiple Martial Arts traits was plausible, it was obvious that a more scientific approach was necessary. So, I broke out the stopwatch to record the time between punches.

The instant the character begins motion I start, the instant the character begins motion on the next attack round, I stop.
This isn't necessarily the definitive way to do it, but every recording was done that way so regardless of method, the times will be equally tested throughout.

Time measured from start of punch motion to start of punch motion
No Brutal Earrings!
SubJobs were turned OFF

First, I had Degaade punch at me:

Degaade lvl 48 PUP

7.0
6.9
6.8
6.7
6.8
6.8
7.0
6.9

Now to comapre, I punched at him and recorded the times in the same fashion

Elmerthepointy lvl 75 PUP

6.2
6.1
5.8
6.1
6.2
6.2
6.3
6.3

As expected, I was considerably faster than him.

Now, I wanted to test if there was a middle Martial Arts trait. So we went off to Breener and I made the lvl cap 50.

Elmerthepointy lvl 50 PUP

6.3
6.6
6.3
6.5
6.3
6.4
6.4
6.7
6.5
6.3

You can see this last test overlaps the high end of lvl 75 PUP and the low end of lvl 48 PUP.

I believe the charts from the PUP site and the JP wiki are correct. The times seem to show it, and as Degaade was being bludgeoned he was telling me I appeared to change speed as well.

Of course I encourage you to test on your own if you'd like some first-hand experience with this. After testing all this I have to say it is looking good for PUP ^-^d

[Toth]

Posted this on ZAM as well:

I was just out in the Thickets testing on Colibris and with the Turban and my Hades, I attacked on average every 4.5-5 seconds. That is just not possible with MA I. Going to test this out some more.

Edit: Without the Turban but with the Hades, average time between swings was 5-6 seconds.

[Jkun]

Actually, the multiple Resist Slow thing can't be true unless you add gear.

Try it yourself. Go Assault or buy a Velocity Earring, head on over to Mamook, and exp on Spider. You'll resist Spider Web WAY more with the earring on. But without it on (I use Ethereal/Brutal in exp), I resist one slow in maybe 1 hour of exp. :/

As far as speed goes with Martial Arts and in general, I use Optical Hat over Wal. Turban for the Eva+ and Acc+.

I mean, haste would be nice, but since PUP only get what, Wal Turban and Swift Belt? It's not gonna affect a low delay weapon like Hades Sainti a lot.

Now if PUP got Homam, I really wouldn't be crying, lol.

[Toth]

PUP would never get Homam since it is heavy mail, though it is surprising THF can wear it.

[Toth]

And of course, Enaru, the PUP wondertank, has to show his usual noobness on ZAM (Be sure to see his job levels):

"But what gives you the right to say this is all evidence that PUP is a DD only job? Its not like Evasion Bonus helps with dding any. I could just as easily say this is further proof that PUP is a viable tank job cuz now its got three things going for it: Several Evasion Bonus traits, Martial Arts traits to help with holding hate, and the big one, a cure-bot with limitless mp.

Edited, Today 6:14am by Enaru


----------------------------
Tarutaru character: Littlegalka *PUP 71* RNG66 THF51 BRD41 WAR37 BST36 COR23 DRK20 Guard Skill: 155+10 and rising "

He is tanking at 71 apparently...I weep for his parties. People wonder why PUP is not taking seriously....

[Jkun]

Uh,

So if Evasion doesn't help with DD, why the hell do Monks get Dodge?

I mean, it's probably there for solo use, since I tank over E100 when soloing. OR if you do manage to pull hate (lol+7EnmitySainti) you can dodge a few blows.

Not only that, but if I'm exping or Limbusing on PUP with Accelerator II on, it's HILARIOUS to watch tanks and DD get hit with AOE damage or AOE stun, but me and E100 evade it, allowing us to land a few more blows in or cast a few more cures.

Speaking of which, that last line, Cure IV doesn't go off enough to be viable as a hate holder. Also, if you're using the solo ValorHead/StormBody combo in exp, kill yourself.

Puppetmasters are dancers. They have to be flexible Let's try to look at the job from a fun perspective instead of parsing the mystery of it to death.

[Toth]

:D You're preaching to the choir here but this is the thinking that dominated ZAM for so long...

[Khamsin]

After selling another ENM60 attachment, I've come to realize the true meaning of Puppetmaster.

It's a pyramid scheme!

You start by paying other PUPs millions for attachments to get started. When you hit 60, you cover your investment by selling attachments for millions to other PUPs who, eventually, themselves will hit 60 and sell attachments to cover their investments.

You can make a profit, but only if you first sink a ton of gil into it, and pay other PUPs with more seniority to get stared.

[Reynard]

i still say toth flips out WAY too much that others like to tank in xp parties, not once recognizing the fact that sometimes you really want to party and ZOMG there are no NINs or PLDs around. Versatility is a strength. in a game with a zillion DD jobs and only 2 acceppted tanks, I'll settle for being a distant third tank in a pinch. and gogo guard skillups...

[Toth]

No NIN or PLDs looking? Get two WARs or a WAR and SAM to dual. PUP should not be in the tanking equation.

[Reynard]

No NIN or PLDs looking? Get two WARs or a WAR and SAM to dual. PUP should not be in the tanking equation.

honestly I feel like I'm lucky when theres 6 people that can work together at all looking at the same time on my server quite often. The last few weeks there has never been more than one party my level range active at any one time when I'm trying to level. Acting like there are always superfulous wars, sams, or anything lurking around waiting to be invited anytime is just not reality, though yeah, I'd try and pull them into the party if i could. Clearly you aren't lfg at the the levels and times I am on my server...

and yeah, gogo guard skillups. I have fun as a PUP when I'm being beat on, but I don't go out of my way to be a tank when I don't need to.

Versatility really IS our biggest strength IMHO. why are people such haters of this fact?

[Toth]

The versatility is not the issue here. It is the fact that certain PUPs are tanking meodicre parties after 55 and proclaiming them to be 'successful'.

[Amadeo]

Finally got myself a nice new attachment from ENM60. Target Marker, yay.