Attachments?

[Lithiani]

The versatility is not the issue here. It is the fact that certain PUPs are tanking meodicre parties after 55 and proclaiming them to be 'successful'.

Wait... people still use monotanking in XP?

[Priran]

The versatility is not the issue here. It is the fact that certain PUPs are tanking meodicre parties after 55 and proclaiming them to be 'successful'.

Wait... people still use monotanking in XP?

Is this even viable pre-75? I can't think of a single EXP 50-70 mob that's as weak as merit PT mobs.
Getting 3 LS WARs with 20 mil in gear at Lv.65 to trade hate doesn't make you eat, drink, and shit concentrate of awesome.

[Lithiani]

Lower Tier Puks, Puktraps, Tigers... All very squishy.

Indeed, hate shifting is a massive advantage on the Tigers because the damn things proc double so much and hit like a truck if they do get through. All offence, no defence, those things. It's more or less like fast-chaining Coeurls at Ose camp used to be.

[Priran]

Lower Tier Puks, Puktraps, Tigers... All very squishy.

Indeed, hate shifting is a massive advantage on the Tigers because the damn things proc double so much and hit like a truck if they do get through. All offence, no defence, those things. It's more or less like fast-chaining Coeurls at Ose camp used to be.

But is it really all that much more amazing without a single tank? I remember partying on the Tigers while leveling BLU, it was fine as far as Tigers go.

[Lithiani]

My point (with relevance to the thread) was more that PUPs defensive trait was there to aid survival in the event that they did take hate through WS or normal DD, in much the same way as most DDs have to have a survivabily factor in their XP PT play setup.

I don't know of a single well played DD who won't take hate, even in ideal circumstance, given a fast moving XP PT. That includes PUP.

Just because they have Evasion traits, does not make them any more of a solo tank by design (game application is a player concept), than it reduces their capability as a DD.

The concepts of tank and DD are rapidly losing ground in XP play, in favour of effective "survivable DDs". WAR/NIN has always performed thus. MNK/NIN in a similar manner. RNG/NIN also used to work this way. NIN/WAR have shifted focus much more towards damage output than the old evade builds. Seigan has given SAM much enhanced survivability.

I'd simply contend that Evasion traits are PUPs own in built form of this.

[Priran]

My point (with relevance to the thread) was more that PUPs defensive trait was there to aid survival in the event that they did take hate through WS or normal DD, in much the same way as most DDs have to have a survivabily factor in their XP PT play setup.

I don't know of a single well played DD who won't take hate, even in ideal circumstance, given a fast moving XP PT. That includes PUP.

Just because they have Evasion traits, does not make them any more of a solo tank by design (game application is a player concept), than it reduces their capability as a DD.

The concepts of tank and DD are rapidly losing ground in XP play, in favour of effective "survivable DDs". WAR/NIN has always performed thus. MNK/NIN in a similar manner. RNG/NIN also used to work this way. NIN/WAR have shifted focus much more towards damage output than the old evade builds. Seigan has given SAM much enhanced survivability.

I'd simply contend that Evasion traits are PUPs own in built form of this.

Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I don't think SE would give a job with a C as its highest melee skill a safeguard for accidentally pulling hate from a tank. Then again, I don't believe SE would give a tank job absolutely no hate-grabbing JAs of its own.

In the end, I figure PUP was meant to provide an alternative solo-to-75 job like BST that SE didn't really think through too well.

[Toth]

My point (with relevance to the thread) was more that PUPs defensive trait was there to aid survival in the event that they did take hate through WS or normal DD, in much the same way as most DDs have to have a survivabily factor in their XP PT play setup.

Try to make that point on the ZAM PUP boards. I triple dog dare you. Wear a fire jacket.

[Lithiani]

My point (with relevance to the thread) was more that PUPs defensive trait was there to aid survival in the event that they did take hate through WS or normal DD, in much the same way as most DDs have to have a survivabily factor in their XP PT play setup.

Try to make that point on the ZAM PUP boards. I triple dog dare you. Wear a fire jacket.

I would, but I don't speak retard.

[Khamsin]

In the end, I figure PUP was meant to provide an alternative solo-to-75 job like BST that SE didn't really think through too well.

Solo, no. A PUP can solo, but not very efficiently in terms of soloing for xp.

However, a PUP duo chaining Ts is very effective.

I gained about 2 levels when I was in my 40s just running around in the river in Misareaux Coast with another PUP, chaining Ts nonstop.

Granted, that was in my 40s, but nonetheless I'm sure the general principle still applies. Two PUP/NINs with Stormwakers (I don't like the Valorwaker setup; with mana converter, there's no reason not to let your Stormwaker enfeeble and nuke, plus it has half the casting time as Valorwaker; equip a Scanner if you're afraid of nukes taking hate) can do quite well. Some levels would be tougher to duo than others, depending on what sorts of camps you have available at that point. Naturally, camps full of T mobs that neither link nor aggro is optimal, but not necessary. The deciding factor is mostly whether or not there's plenty of T mobs at your level that don't have nasty moves that your automaton can't help you deal with.

During early levels, PUP/NIN will have a problem keeping hate off their automaton, but later in levels with better gear and weaponskills, it won't be a problem.

[Reynard]

Puppetmaster Adjustments

Several new automaton weapon skills will be introduced. High-level automatons will have new weapon skills available for use in various situations.

- Melee Type
Inflicts melee damage on a target and drains an amount of HP in proportion to the damage dealt.
- Ranged Type
Inflicts ranged damage on a target and occasionally has the additional effect of Stun.
- Magic Type/Standard Type
Inflicts melee damage on a target and occasionally has the additional effect of greatly reducing evasion for a brief period of time.

Hmm, i was hoping for a job ability or two, and maybe a way to rest independantly of puppet. Though new WS are sorely needed. Hope they chain with the H2H WS a bit easier than the old ones too. The wording is vague enough that we may be getting more than 1 new WS per frame. And hopefully there may be some tweaks to Stormwaker casting logic. I find it highly irritating that all the MATK attachments are ice based, but using an ice maneuver makes the puppet start casting silence. I think the mage puppet needs major manuever overhaul....

Seeing as new attachments and gear, and (plz plz) new frames aren't really adjustments, I am maintaining hope that this patch will bea godsend for us. a New Frame and a key attachment or two could totally transform us into respectable members of society.

One attachment I kept expecting to see that would help a lot in the level grind is a Dispel piece. Just feels like something a robot could do flavorwise. But with BLU and COR having notes about dispel upgrades this patch, I now have doubts they'd give PUPs a way to do it too. All 3 new jobs == dispellers? /crosses fingers.

[Jkun]

Valoredge has a mini Blood Weapon now, haha.

I think these WSs are aimed at endgame to stop the little PUPs trying to be so badass with their bought ENM60 parts.

However I think we still need something 70+ whether it's a new JA, Frame, quested attachment or two or even gear liek Relic/JSE to really make us good at endgame.

And by good I mean REALLY GOOD, Not sub par or average which is what we are now.

[Elmer the Pointy]

A couple things...

Valoredge has a mini Blood Weapon now, haha.
I think these WSs are aimed at endgame to stop the little PUPs trying to be so badass with their bought ENM60 parts.

What does that mean? Even with new WSs available you're going to need ENM60 parts if you want to be effective.
Also, buying some parts isn't such a big deal. I bought Smoke Screen/Equalizer to help in the ENM and since then I've won Attuner, T. Marker, Drum Magazine, Eraser, Equalizer. A lot of duplicates too, so I just make money now.

Secondly,

Plus unless they make Automatons curable, which they won't, especially with this new /ignorepet command, they can't be classified as a "tank". I really wish you'ld stop thinking puppets can do this at endgame...But you've probably been told that enough times, it just never sinks in.

Please don't make up crap about me, I find it really irritating. You can't just waltz in here late-November and fabricate my opinions and playstyle when you obviously know nothing about me and what I've contributed over the past months.

[volcanicweather]

The only fix PUP really needs: Boost our H2H skill to B and give us access to the Asuran Fists quest (seeing as we're the only job in the game that can't quest our final WS).

This would end a whole lot of the lolPUP chatter.

[Janice]

The only fix PUP really needs: Boost our H2H skill to B and give us access to the Asuran Fists quest (seeing as we're the only job in the game that can't quest our final WS).

This would end a whole lot of the lolPUP chatter.

Don't see SMN complain of their low weapon ratings. Cause they don't do anything, their avatars do. If anything, give the puppets higher weapon ratings, not the PUP.

[Elmer the Pointy]

The only fix PUP really needs: Boost our H2H skill to B and give us access to the Asuran Fists quest (seeing as we're the only job in the game that can't quest our final WS).

This would end a whole lot of the lolPUP chatter.

Don't see SMN complain of their low weapon ratings. Cause they don't do anything, their avatars do. If anything, give the puppets higher weapon ratings, not the PUP.

To be fair, avatars have a lot more capabilites than Automatons. However, I agree with you that the answer is buffing the puppet. PUP needs to be more unique, not simply a stronger melee.

These new weaponskills are a step in the right direction.

[volcanicweather]

The only fix PUP really needs: Boost our H2H skill to B and give us access to the Asuran Fists quest (seeing as we're the only job in the game that can't quest our final WS).

This would end a whole lot of the lolPUP chatter.

Don't see SMN complain of their low weapon ratings. Cause they don't do anything, their avatars do. If anything, give the puppets higher weapon ratings, not the PUP.

At least SMN can help back-up cure / support with the best MP pool in the game. So let's say the buff the automaton.. what can PUP do then? 200-300mp from WHM SJ doesn't cut it, we do 3 manuvers, then what.. stand around and cheer our automaton on?

This job really needs more of an identity. Either buff the pet or the master, or ideally, a little of both.

[Kenai]

The only fix PUP really needs: Boost our H2H skill to B and give us access to the Asuran Fists quest (seeing as we're the only job in the game that can't quest our final WS).

This would end a whole lot of the lolPUP chatter.

Don't see SMN complain of their low weapon ratings. Cause they don't do anything, their avatars do. If anything, give the puppets higher weapon ratings, not the PUP.

At least SMN can help back-up cure / support with the best MP pool in the game. So let's say the buff the automaton.. what can PUP do then? 200-300mp from WHM SJ doesn't cut it, we do 3 manuvers, then what.. stand around and cheer our automaton on?

This job really needs more of an identity. Either buff the pet or the master, or ideally, a little of both.

You seem to be misunderstanding something. What is so bad about most of PUP's special skills and a large portion of their damage coming from the puppet? Is that really a hard concept to grasp? SMN is forced to sub WHM and cure because they spend a ton of MP to do anything else but BP. PUP could definitely use some better armor and maybe a JA/Activate timer down or something, but most of the focus should be on the puppet and making it better. SEs description on PUP even says that PUP is supposed to "fall back on H2H', not make it the main concern. MNK isnt badass just because of Asuran Fists, it's because of some of the ridiculous gear and JAs they get.

What's annoying about PUP is that the puppet is supposed to be really job defining and useful when it is just decent-good in most situations, and not exceptional at anything.A little overhaul and an attachment or two could change that quite fast, believe it or not.

[Toth]

What's annoying about PUP is that the puppet is supposed to be really job defining and useful when it is just decent-good in most situations, and not exceptional at anything.A little overhaul and an attachment or two could change that quite fast, believe it or not.

You hit the nail right on the head.

[Sidanoir]

It saddens me that PUP only gets C ? H2H skill and no Asuran Fists...having parsed parties with my PUP friend in the 60s
She usually does 14% and her puppet does 3-5% >.>

So to me it seems most of the damage is on the PUP not the puppet, she can't get a target marker yet though supposedly thats bad ass?

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

It saddens me that PUP only gets C ? H2H skill and no Asuran Fists...having parsed parties with my PUP friend in the 60s
She usually does 14% and her puppet does 3-5% >.>

So to me it seems most of the damage is on the PUP not the puppet, she can't get a target marker yet though supposedly thats bad ass?

Why do people complain that PUP cant do good damage when they dont have the gear (read: attachments) to make it work... Thats like a Blue Mage complaining that the job sucks because he's spamming sickle slash at 75.