MND/HNMs and Banish Testing

[Delekii]

one would assume there's probably a mnd cap on para too.

20% is max paralyze. I haven't tested but it seems that the amount of MND needed is much smaller than that needed to reach the cap on slow.

how could anyone possibly work out to a reasonable standard of proof what the cap on the % chance for paralyze to kick in is?

[Priran]

one would assume there's probably a mnd cap on para too.

20% is max paralyze. I haven't tested but it seems that the amount of MND needed is much smaller than that needed to reach the cap on slow.

how could anyone possibly work out to a reasonable standard of proof what the cap on the % chance for paralyze to kick in is?

with a large sample size on ronfaure rabbits?

Paralyze, afk for half an hour, tally that shit up and Paralyze it again.

[Lockecole]

one would assume there's probably a mnd cap on para too.

20% is max paralyze. I haven't tested but it seems that the amount of MND needed is much smaller than that needed to reach the cap on slow.

how could anyone possibly work out to a reasonable standard of proof what the cap on the % chance for paralyze to kick in is?

Not to mention not only does paralyze have a set percentage proc, it also has a set amount of procs. This is why paralyze ALWAYS wears right after a proc, meaning its last use was used up. Now its almost impossible to tell what exactly MND affects, percentage of proc, amount of procs per cast...duration? Who knows, we can just assume that its like slow, where its more potent all around when used with more MND.

[Lordwafik]

Not to mention not only does paralyze have a set percentage proc, it also has a set amount of procs. This is why paralyze ALWAYS wears right after a proc, meaning its last use was used up.

I dunno, I cant really vouch for this >_>

[Not Kuno]

As a blm paralyzing easier HNMs, I sometimes land paralyze and have it wear off w/o procing once.

[noremorse]

Not to mention not only does paralyze have a set percentage proc, it also has a set amount of procs. This is why paralyze ALWAYS wears right after a proc, meaning its last use was used up.

I dunno, I cant really vouch for this >_>

Today I para II'd kirin. It proc'd 0 times before it wore. Does that mean the Set amount was 0? >.> pretty gay (fyi j/k, i dont agree locke).

[Raineer]

Not to mention not only does paralyze have a set percentage proc, it also has a set amount of procs. This is why paralyze ALWAYS wears right after a proc, meaning its last use was used up.

I dunno, I cant really vouch for this >_>

Today I para II'd kirin. It proc'd 0 times before it wore. Does that mean the Set amount was 0? >.> pretty gay (fyi j/k, i dont agree locke).

I think it's an either-or:

Like...you land paralyze and the second it lands the server says "based on potency this will last 43 seconds or 9 procs". Now, the paralyze goes off randomly but at a 25% clip, meaning it could never proc or proc 9 straight times.

Whenever I've landed a paralyze that has been very high potency (or at least lucky with procs), it always wears off right after a proc...which supports locke's conclusion. I just also think there is a set time limit for it as well, so you end up hitting one of the 2 parameters and then it wears.

[Jeryhn]

When it comes to paralyze, I see it wear off right after a proc the majority of the time too, but the same could be said for Silence as well. Silence will oftentimes wear off just before the "timer" on a mob's spellcasting is ready to begin casting.

I don't think this is how the spells function as so much as mobs somehow get some kind of a saving roll (lold&d) that checks if the effect wears off just after it should have proc'd. I say this because a mob can Paralyze and Silence a player, but they don't nescessarily wear off directly after a proc.

[phirien]

Not to mention not only does paralyze have a set percentage proc, it also has a set amount of procs. This is why paralyze ALWAYS wears right after a proc, meaning its last use was used up.

I dunno, I cant really vouch for this >_>

Today I para II'd kirin. It proc'd 0 times before it wore. Does that mean the Set amount was 0? >.> pretty gay (fyi j/k, i dont agree locke).

I think it's an either-or:

Like...you land paralyze and the second it lands the server says "based on potency this will last 43 seconds or 9 procs". Now, the paralyze goes off randomly but at a 25% clip, meaning it could never proc or proc 9 straight times.

Whenever I've landed a paralyze that has been very high potency (or at least lucky with procs), it always wears off right after a proc...which supports locke's conclusion. I just also think there is a set time limit for it as well, so you end up hitting one of the 2 parameters and then it wears.

which pretty much means the effects of MND for Paralyze could potentially include:

1- setting a maximum time limit on the longevity of the spell
2- setting a maximum proc limit within the aformentioned time limit
3- determining the % of chance of a parlyze proc'ing within the time limit

i land what i feel are generally strong paralyzes, and my paralyzes typically wear immediately following a proc (i get a ton of procs immediately after my paralyze lands too, for what its worth), which would support Locke's arguement.. so it would seem reasonable that your MND determines your maximum proc rate.

to be honest, i'm not confident SE would make paralyze so heavily dependant on MND, i'm trying to think of another spell/ability that has this many factors determined by the same attribute, but none come to mind.

[safer]

i dont think same holds true for silence... reason why mobs cast immediately is because they've been constantly trying to cast but unable to so once it wears they're free to do it

ie
they cast when it wears off, not;
it wears off because they want to cast

[Jeryhn]

i dont think same holds true for silence... reason why mobs cast immediately is because they've been constantly trying to cast but unable to so once it wears they're free to do it

ie
they cast when it wears off, not;
it wears off because they want to cast

Mobs don't try to cast constantly. Keeping a WHM mob alive in Dynasmis proves this. The WHM mob can Silena something you silenced and it won't nescessarily try to cast immediately.

[phirien]

i dont think same holds true for silence... reason why mobs cast immediately is because they've been constantly trying to cast but unable to so once it wears they're free to do it

ie
they cast when it wears off, not;
it wears off because they want to cast

Mobs don't try to cast constantly. Keeping a WHM mob alive in Dynasmis proves this. The WHM mob can Silena something you silenced and it won't nescessarily try to cast immediately.

could be only when the silence effect wears naturally.

if mobs truly have a "spell timer" as you referred to it earlier, then i'm not quite sure how SE would distinguish between a silence that wears naturally and a silence thats wears because of foreign factors. so i'm stumped.

regardless, from my experience, mobs that have their silence wear naturally almost always cast immediately, especially when dealing with high-end HNM (Tiamat firaga3 etc)

[safer]

maybe its a combination... i do agree with spell timers though

on worms you can see if you stand at a distance, they'll cast a spell.. then wait some time (i havnt timed them, maybe should try next time) then they'll cast again etc

lemme rephrase what i said :

if the mobs spell timer is up, and he's silenced,,,, he'll continue to try to cast until silence wears off..

if the mobs spell timer is not up, and silence wears... he'll just wait till his timer is up to cast

this makes more sense to me

maybe i can play with some worms... if they do infact have set timers on when they cast.. i can just silence them, and see if silence wears off at a time shorter than normal when its timer is up -- my prediction is that silence wont wear off sooner because its trying to cast, but will stay for the duration determined when the spell first lands.. (ie taking into account partial resists)

[Sci]

i dont think same holds true for silence... reason why mobs cast immediately is because they've been constantly trying to cast but unable to so once it wears they're free to do it

ie
they cast when it wears off, not;
it wears off because they want to cast

Mobs don't try to cast constantly. Keeping a WHM mob alive in Dynasmis proves this. The WHM mob can Silena something you silenced and it won't nescessarily try to cast immediately.

I believe there's a time when they can cast again, and will cast any high priority spells. And a time when they'll cast anything in the spell list that isn't redundant (They won't cast Protect if they have it, although NIN mob's AI is less intelligent ). Anyone that leveled up a healer fellowship NPC would have noticed this kind of behavior. If the timing is right, and they haven't cast in a while, they'll poisona you the instant you get poisoned. But if you don't need any na spells, your HP is good, and you have protect and shell up, your NPC will eventually try to silence that crab you're fighting.

It's a lot harder to play around with actual monster AI in groups, since you usually split up monsters or sleep adds. But I would have to agree, pretty much any spell casting mob that has been silenced or slept for a while will cast the instant it can. It's kind of what makes Ghrahs and Elementals easier to solo.

[Raineer]

maybe i can play with some worms... if they do infact have set timers on when they cast.. i can just silence them, and see if silence wears off at a time shorter than normal when its timer is up

Worms are the perfect testbed... If you stand outside melee range they try to cast like every 2 seconds over and over, if you stand in melee range they almost never cast at all. Wouldn't need too many tests, just don't change any stats and do 10 silences out of melee range and 10 silences inside melee range and compare.

I personally don't believe the theory one bit but it's too dang easy to test so why not?

[phirien]

one note worth mentioning:

i feel that SE programmed the mob's AI to recognize when its enfeebled, and NOT attempt to cast when its "spell timer" is up. So when the "timer" is up and the mob is still silenced, the cycle loops over and over until silence wears... as opposed to it simply attempting to cast and not being able to, and continuing to attempt until it is successful.

could be wrong, but the fact that you never see a mob's Job Ability interrupted by paralyze kinda supports this (unless all mobs have a 0s wait timer on JA).

[Not Kuno]

one note worth mentioning:

i feel that SE programmed the mob's AI to recognize when its enfeebled, and NOT attempt to cast when its "spell timer" is up. So when the "timer" is up and the mob is still silenced, the cycle loops over and over until silence wears... as opposed to it simply attempting to cast and not being able to, and continuing to attempt until it is successful.

could be wrong, but the fact that you never see a mob's Job Ability interrupted by paralyze kinda supports this (unless all mobs have a 0s wait timer on JA).

I've had Tiamats Mighty Strikes go off while it was stunned. I doubt Paralyze would stop if if it can do it while stunned.

[Kyreth]

Worm casting AI definitely figures range into account. At certain closer ranges, a Land Worm will toss Bind. If you're near maximum range, all it throws is Rasp and various Stone-type spells. There is a "sweet spot" where a worm will go through it's casting cycle and still be unable to hit you (and you can't hit it, either) but it's very small and the worm tends to deaggro fast.

Smacking Bogy-types around, I usually found that when Silence wore, they'd usually cast right afterwards- but not always. They have a slow casting cycle, but open with a spell every time- and if you let them cast the inital one and THEN Silence, they take a bit to throw a spell (if at all) into things when Silence wears off. I think Silence interrupts the timer.

[phirien]

one note worth mentioning:

i feel that SE programmed the mob's AI to recognize when its enfeebled, and NOT attempt to cast when its "spell timer" is up. So when the "timer" is up and the mob is still silenced, the cycle loops over and over until silence wears... as opposed to it simply attempting to cast and not being able to, and continuing to attempt until it is successful.

could be wrong, but the fact that you never see a mob's Job Ability interrupted by paralyze kinda supports this (unless all mobs have a 0s wait timer on JA).

I've had Tiamats Mighty Strikes go off while it was stunned. I doubt Paralyze would stop if if it can do it while stunned.

i think "2 hours" run under a different set of rules anyway. If a player attempts to use their 2-hour ability when paralyzed, and fails, the recast timer remains at 0, unlike other JA correct?

god only knows with SE, but just an observation.

[Raineer]

one note worth mentioning:

i feel that SE programmed the mob's AI to recognize when its enfeebled, and NOT attempt to cast when its "spell timer" is up. So when the "timer" is up and the mob is still silenced, the cycle loops over and over until silence wears... as opposed to it simply attempting to cast and not being able to, and continuing to attempt until it is successful.

could be wrong, but the fact that you never see a mob's Job Ability interrupted by paralyze kinda supports this (unless all mobs have a 0s wait timer on JA).

Except this is the same mob AI that has the Bibiki Bay Hobgoblin WHM's casting Silena on themselves right after silence wears.