creationism/intelligent design vs. evolution

[Brien]

guys dont worry were in the matrix

[Aumann]

the oracle is evolution and the architect is Intelligent Design. we are all neo.

[Jotaru]

I'm still surprised no (major) religion has cropped up where its basis is that there is a god who created the world and all that jazz, stating that this all powerful being also created evolution and all this other stuff to in essence make it impossible to ever fully detect his/her/its presence. Sure, there might be similar theories (intelligent design) but it just amazes me that people are more akin to believe that some God created two people (out of each other pretty much) and they developed into 6 billion people than the fact that perhaps this God planned out everything as it is now.

[Lockecole]

I'm still surprised no (major) religion has cropped up where its basis is that there is a god who created the world and all that jazz, stating that this all powerful being also created evolution and all this other stuff to in essence make it impossible to ever fully detect his/her/its presence. Sure, there might be similar theories (intelligent design) but it just amazes me that people are more akin to believe that some God created two people (out of each other pretty much) and they developed into 6 billion people than the fact that perhaps this God planned out everything as it is now.

Are you saying you find it hard to believe 2 people could eventually become 6 billion? I'm not sure if that's what you were saying, but you should probably check the rate at which the population increases...it's not a highly impossible statement.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I'm still surprised no (major) religion has cropped up where its basis is that there is a god who created the world and all that jazz, stating that this all powerful being also created evolution and all this other stuff to in essence make it impossible to ever fully detect his/her/its presence. Sure, there might be similar theories (intelligent design) but it just amazes me that people are more akin to believe that some God created two people (out of each other pretty much) and they developed into 6 billion people than the fact that perhaps this God planned out everything as it is now.

Are you saying you find it hard to believe 2 people could eventually become 6 billion? I'm not sure if that's what you were saying, but you should probably check the rate at which the population increases...it's not a highly impossible statement.

No I think the point is its such a leap to say 'well these 2 people, see, this guy, but not really a guy, like a really powerful guy, made them. and all genetic variation is from those 2 people.' evidence? Cause a book said so!

[Okan]

I'm still surprised no (major) religion has cropped up where its basis is that there is a god who created the world and all that jazz, stating that this all powerful being also created evolution and all this other stuff to in essence make it impossible to ever fully detect his/her/its presence. Sure, there might be similar theories (intelligent design) but it just amazes me that people are more akin to believe that some God created two people (out of each other pretty much) and they developed into 6 billion people than the fact that perhaps this God planned out everything as it is now.

Are you saying you find it hard to believe 2 people could eventually become 6 billion? I'm not sure if that's what you were saying, but you should probably check the rate at which the population increases...it's not a highly impossible statement.

It's impossible because of inbreeding. If you've ever seen pictures of deformed children due to it, you'd know that we'd all be acting like monkeys, picking our asses and flinging the left overs.

Secondly, I'm sure everyone has their own theory:
First man saw lightning strike a tree! He couldn't explain what just happened so he made up "god" for all things unexplained. Suddenly the tree was on fire. More reason to believe in this so called god.

A few hundred years later, we have actual religions. Now at these times, if you didn't believe in the government's "god", you were killed. No discussing what we are now. Beheaded in front of everyone in the middle of town. People higher in their respective religious hierarchy suddenly realized they had more power than the kings and queens of their homelands. Some just preached about their god and how great he was. Others... they used their god/religion to came power over people in control of the lands. "God says you have to take over this place because they don't believe in *our* god. They believe in a different god" which sounded like a great excuse to attack your neighboring country... However it was all for gold, or farm land, or whatever reason they had.

Just my belief though...

Edit:
Short story: God was created to explain what could not be explained at that time.
Second half: "God" was powerful and was used wrongly in many ways in the early years of the humans.

[Jotaru]

I just think its odd that people have formed these religions with these ideas, and they clash with the other scientific theories such as evolution and all that... If god really DOES exist, wouldn't it make sense that he created evolution in an attempt to either a) make the universe function or b) hide his own existance?

I'm sure 2 people could form to 6 billion, that wasn't the focal point of what I was sayin however. Its like... say you have a huge, huge Lego building. The person who built it is god. Religion as it stands more or less says "There was a Lego builder, and the building was there". Evolution says the blocks kinda formed each other to make a building on their own. Who's to say that there wasn't some big intelligent powerful being who made the individual blocks, then made them to form into a huge building? Rather than just making the universe 'work', wouldn't it make sense that a God would sort of... put things into place to make the universe take care of itself and run? Evolution.. expansion of the universe... etc. Just seems a lot more fitting to me, and, generally, more 'likely' in the sense that if there is a God, I doubt he just makes everything as it is.

Think Henry Ford - don't build the car, build smaller units that work individually to make the cars for you

Edit:

"God says you have to take over this place because they don't believe in *our* god. They believe in a different god" which sounded like a great excuse to attack your neighboring country... However it was all for gold, or farm land, or whatever reason they had.

Hm... Sounds familiar..

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

It's impossible because of inbreeding. If you've ever seen pictures of deformed children due to it, you'd know that we'd all be acting like monkeys, picking our asses and flinging the left overs.

I just want to point out that inbreeding is an issue because of recessive traits people have in families that never show up since they're rare outside of the family. So if you make the leap that god created adam and eve then you also assume he made them perfect without those bad traits.

The more you know (cue star animation)

[Lockecole]

It's impossible because of inbreeding. If you've ever seen pictures of deformed children due to it, you'd know that we'd all be acting like monkeys, picking our asses and flinging the left overs.

I just want to point out that inbreeding is an issue because of recessive traits people have in families that never show up since they're rare outside of the family. So if you make the leap that god created adam and eve then you also assume he made them perfect without those bad traits.

The more you know (cue star animation)

*Ding Ding*

[Demosthenes11]

Personally, I've always said that "God was created in order to explain our pathetic lives." Saying this, however, I do belive in god. I do believe that ID is a huge possibility, as well as evolution. It doesn't really boil down to ID v. evolution...it's not that black and white at all. As pointed out a few pages back, it certainly is possible to believe in both at the same time, while not acheiving a paradox. It is not one or the other.
As was said earlier, to me, things fit too well to be coincidence, and it really makes me WANT to believe in a god. All of the minor differences species have that allows them to survive has always been a wonder to me.
Also, there is no way to prove god, just like there is no way to disprove him. Arguing about his existence is just dumb, because there is literally no way to prove either side. I find god a comfort to believe in. Sure, it does not make him really believing he is real, but it is a comfort in daily activity. I don't need to have something smacked in my face to think it is real. This 'blind faith' is not unreal because it cannot be proven, and that is enough for me

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

It's impossible because of inbreeding. If you've ever seen pictures of deformed children due to it, you'd know that we'd all be acting like monkeys, picking our asses and flinging the left overs.

I just want to point out that inbreeding is an issue because of recessive traits people have in families that never show up since they're rare outside of the family. So if you make the leap that god created adam and eve then you also assume he made them perfect without those bad traits.

The more you know (cue star animation)

*Ding Ding*

It doesnt make the viewpoint you seem to be expressing make any sense though. Its just important to get the facts straight.

[Brien]

The more you know (cue star animation)

rofl

[Lockecole]

It's impossible because of inbreeding. If you've ever seen pictures of deformed children due to it, you'd know that we'd all be acting like monkeys, picking our asses and flinging the left overs.

I just want to point out that inbreeding is an issue because of recessive traits people have in families that never show up since they're rare outside of the family. So if you make the leap that god created adam and eve then you also assume he made them perfect without those bad traits.

The more you know (cue star animation)

*Ding Ding*

It doesnt make the viewpoint you seem to be expressing make any sense though. Its just important to get the facts straight.

Im not trying to say it makes sense, (though with what you're saying, inbreeding would not be an issue, and that was my point) I'm aware scientifically alot of ID is unsupported by any concrete evidence or proof. It's why I stated my initial reply in this topic. So basically take anything I say with a grain of salt, keeping in mind my viewpoint on how people view both theories.

[BRP]

It's impossible because of inbreeding. If you've ever seen pictures of deformed children due to it, you'd know that we'd all be acting like monkeys, picking our asses and flinging the left overs.

People don't do this....?!

[Nirokun!]

then what are the gays? without reproduction we dont participate actively in evolution :D do we have a purpose in god's world?! to be stoned to death!? doesnt make sense~

i do like how the theories that depict homosexuality as the evolution of altruistic life~ whose (sp? correct usage? its late) mere existance helps siblings and the closer family-group in a similair manner the grandmother effect does

but what if i dont like my brothers, and dont want to take care of their children with my resources accrued from the lack of my own offspring! am i truly free from this cycle?! (*'-')breakthecyclebitches :3

[Eaglestrike]

I've seen this debate a bunch of times, I'll just add a little bit to it.

There is nothing in the Bible that doesn't make sense to me when you add CONTEXT.

The first five books of the Bible (read: Genesis/creation explanation) was written by Moses. God told Moses the things that happened before Moses existed. If you honestly believe God is going to explain about genes and Big bangs to a human with absolutely no knowledge of such things you're a fool. There is GOOD REASON to believe the "Creation story" was simply the easiest way for God to make sense to these people.

Also, the rest of the Bible was written by people who experienced these things, so while there are metaphors and such, it's completely different from Genesis -> Moses' story because of the authors hands-on knowledge of the events.

My personal theory on everything: No stance. I wasn't there and you cannot prove anything is correct unless there is a God and He shows you how it happened on DVD.

[untouchable]

(havent read this thread much)

ok so the priest at church says that the catholic church accepts evolution and all that science stuff

and my biology teacher at school says that the church and science arent meant to be compared since faith is completely different from fact.
he also says that intelligent design is false because lack of facts and its based on nothing

word

[Mandos]

That's my point. What we have now cannot be supported by statistics and probability (I have yet to take a look at that computer simulation thing, I'll do that)

We don't know all the possibilties. We dont know the genetic history. Without that knowledge we can't know the chances anyways. The concept of evolution is one thing that logically fits in the puzzle of our existance. And honestly, I can see macroevolution.

Gaf it seems to me you are someone who beleives evolution/intelligent design are theories designed to explain how humans came to arise. We are just a fluke, nothing more than that. The path of evolution isn't one of taking great strides in increasing complexity towards the ultimate creation, us. It's a series of leaps and bounds into the unknown which 99% of have already become extinct.

Why would an intelligent being who designed us also make so many other species of animals/plants/other lifeforms that are extinct? Take something elementary like the difference between vertebraes and invertebraes, you can divide most of the animal kingdom along that line; you either have a backbone or you don't. Where are the species with diamond shaped backbones? Exoskeletons made of iron?

They existed once, and were unsuccesful compared to animals with a self supporting backbone, so they died out. Why would an intelligent designer create/design things that are doomed to fail against better designs. Evolution is much more able to account for these mistakes as experiments through mutation that didn't work out. The flaw in intelligent design in explain these is that it isn't intelligent at all.

[Not Kuno]

This thread makes me angry in that how stupid people can be. How the fuck can you not believe in evolution. Hi2U fossiles comparing the eventual growth and changes of various species of animals including those of humans.

[Demetrick]

This thread makes me angry in that how stupid people can be. How the fuck can you not believe in evolution. Hi2U fossiles comparing the eventual growth and changes of various species of animals including those of humans.

Seriously: The fossil record is the best evidence we have, but less than 1% of living things have been fossilized. Its nearly impossible to have just random chance into making fossils, but we still have them and the ones we do have clearly show the diversity of where we came from. Not just we as people but as all living organisms.

The moment I opened a biology book was the day I stopped believing.

Back on topic:

1) The earths only 4,000 years old.
2) God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, don't worry about genetics and inbreeding because that involves science and not God.
3) Fossils are here to test your faith.
4) The Bible is the true word of God, not a collection of stories or metaphors.

Well I ran out of stereotypes.

My favorite book Jared Diamond's "The Third Chimpanzee" is a good book about human evolution written pretty well for the lay person.