creationism/intelligent design vs. evolution

[Shaede]

Hmmm....

Evolution + Literal Interpretation of the Bible = Doesn't work.

Let's try this.

Science + Literal Interpretation of the Bible = Doesn't work.

Damn it. This?

Common Sense + Literal Interpretation of the Bible = Doesn't work.

This is a problem, isn't it? I wonder how we could address this.

Wait, I know.

Evolution + Metaphoric Interpretation of the Bible = Win!

Sweet!

Science + Metaphoric Interpretation of the Bible = Win!

I might be on to something.

Common Sense + Metaphoric Interpretation of the Bible = Win!

Yeah, this isn't a case of conflicting source material. It's just an issue of not understanding the source material.

[Ksandra]

Ok I just have to get this out of the way.

I'm trying to find the point in time where we all say "hey guys, you know it doesn't really change my life that someone happens to believe something different than me, so I should stop making the same threads once a month"

Seriously every month there's a new topic about this, and not just on this forum, a good 90% of forums that I've hung out with seem to bring up the "god exists, god doesn't exist" topics in one way or another.

Does it really hurt you in the inside that people are willing to take a leap and believe something that isn't the "norm" way of thinking?

I know the answe rwill be "I jsut like to talk about this stuff" or something but jeebus this arguement happens all the time @@;


Incase you were wondering, yes I'm Catholic. No I don't preach (much to the annoyance to some of my baptist friends). I'm a firm believer in "you believe what you feel is right and let the rest believe in what they think is right".

Do I believe in evolution? To be honest, I'm not sure. It's one of those things that if we found out 100% it's true, I wouldn't be surprised, and if we found out 100% it's false I wouldn't be surprised either. Hell half the stuff I knew about dinosaurs in 5th grade I found out about 3 years ago was all a lie (T-Rex a scavenger/plant-eater wha? -.-. So who know's what we'll discover 15 years from now about them.

And guess what? If evolution is true wouldn't waver my faith one bit. I'm sure many will think I'm an idiot for that, but hey I'm living a wonderful life, and was able to prevent myself doing a lot of things I'd regret from my belief in religion (smoking, drugs, etc.).

So just relax sheesh, it's really ok for someone to believe in something different than you.

[Nirokun!]

i think its the feeling people get when a child looks at the sky and says its red-but you, knowing the sky is blue, want to tell this child that the sky is actually blue, and things that are the color of the sky are blue too. I dont think they're really attacking the child in any sense, its more of a helping thing when you want someone to see things the way you do, which happens all around the world. And depending on the 'child', we can see this as an attack on our beliefs, and we get wars like this! :D

[Andarvi]

Ok I just have to get this out of the way.

I'm trying to find the point in time where we all say "hey guys, you know it doesn't really change my life that someone happens to believe something different than me, so I should stop making the same threads once a month"

Seriously every month there's a new topic about this, and not just on this forum, a good 90% of forums that I've hung out with seem to bring up the "god exists, god doesn't exist" topics in one way or another.

Does it really hurt you in the inside that people are willing to take a leap and believe something that isn't the "norm" way of thinking?

I know the answe rwill be "I jsut like to talk about this stuff" or something but jeebus this arguement happens all the time @@;


Incase you were wondering, yes I'm Catholic. No I don't preach (much to the annoyance to some of my baptist friends). I'm a firm believer in "you believe what you feel is right and let the rest believe in what they think is right".

Do I believe in evolution? To be honest, I'm not sure. It's one of those things that if we found out 100% it's true, I wouldn't be surprised, and if we found out 100% it's false I wouldn't be surprised either. Hell half the stuff I knew about dinosaurs in 5th grade I found out about 3 years ago was all a lie (T-Rex a scavenger/plant-eater wha? -.-. So who know's what we'll discover 15 years from now about them.

And guess what? If evolution is true wouldn't waver my faith one bit. I'm sure many will think I'm an idiot for that, but hey I'm living a wonderful life, and was able to prevent myself doing a lot of things I'd regret from my belief in religion (smoking, drugs, etc.).

So just relax sheesh, it's really ok for someone to believe in something different than you.

no, its not ok. because when my kid's teacher tells him/her "the jury is still out on evolution" im going to go down to the school and punch them in the face. to me its like telling them that theres still question as to whether we have landed on the moon or not. i dont know what more evidence people want to validify evolution. its as if people are waiting for their respective dieties to come down and tell everyone.

[Shaede]

So just relax sheesh, it's really ok for someone to believe in something different than you.

I agree, but it has its limits.

You can choose to not believe in evolution. You can choose not to believe in gravity. You can choose not to believe in plate tectonics. All of those are merely theories, after all.

But what is a theory? It's merely something that fits into reality rather well (or perfectly from our perspective). That is to say, that all the data in the world supports it. Will new information become available later that changes our ideas? Of course. We once thought humans evolved from Neanderthals, but we no longer believe that. It doesn't mean Neanderthal man didn't exist or wasn't extremely closely related to us, though. We were on the right track.

What evidence do we have supporting evolution?
- Selective Breeding: farms do it all the time. Plants and animals that have favoritable genes are bred together to make prime choices for food production. Dogs and cats are bred to look specific ways, with extremely differing sizes and colors.

- Fossils: All lifeforms have changed in an orderly manner over time for eons. You can literally track their steps from simular ancestors to what they look like today through fossil records. Sure we have missing links, but that's easily explained by the unconformities in the ground that occur during periods of erosion.

- Biogeography: Animals on isolated areas such as caves, islands, and lakes all resemble their neighbors on the mainland or larger body of water, but each isolated species is unique.

- Homologous Structures: All sorts of different life have a simular structural makeup, suggesting a common thread amongst them all.

- Embryology: Many embryos look the same.

- Hematology: Blood chemistry just so happens to follow taxonomy.

- Vestigial Structures: Creatures have body parts that no longer have any use or meaning. For example, snakes have traces of hind legs. Many cave animals have eyes that don't work. The human body has over 100 vestigial parts including the tail bone, body hair, canine teeth, wisdom teeth, the appendix, and ear muscles.

I'd challenge anyone to find a logical way to disprove the theory of evolution, especially through the use of religious literature.

[Enkidu]

I'd challenge anyone to find a logical way to disprove the theory of evolution, especially through the use of religious literature.

The apologetics are quick on this one. "If God created a tree that was to be 10 years old how many rings would it have, 1 or 10?" If you can create a tree, you can create a tree's history.

Not that I believe that, just saying...

[Shaede]

The apologetics are quick on this one. "If God created a tree that was to be 10 years old how many rings would it have, 1 or 10?" If you can create a tree, you can create a tree's history.

Not that I believe that, just saying...

Ah, but if God created a tree that was 10 years old with 10 years of history, the tree is still 10 years old with 10 years of history and the fact that a god created it that way would be highly irrelivant to an evolutionist and wouldn't contradict in any way with either side, would it?

[Manako]

What's it really matter what the other person believes? If you are both willing to accept differing opinions it shouldnt matter. I don't think someone disagreeing over something that cannot be easily proven or have an effect on something physcial in this world is really that big a think people should worry about. If someone were to tell me that they didn't believe humans need a functioning heart to survive and were a doctor, then yes that would be something problematic.

But what does it matter to the scientist if someone thinks god made them, they may pity them for being unenlightened but its really none of their business. And what does it matter to the true-believer if someone thinks evolution is how we got to be where we are, they may pity them for going to hell or w/e but again, none of their business. There are much bigger, more real things that we can worry about than this sort of thing.

[Enkidu]

Ah, but if God created a tree that was 10 years old with 10 years of history, the tree is still 10 years old with 10 years of history and the fact that a god created it that way would be highly irrelivant to an evolutionist and wouldn't contradict in any way with either side, would it?

No, the tree has actually just been created, it just looks and feels 10 years old. The evolutionist may say "hey it has 10 rings, this tree is 10 years old", however he'd be wrong, it's only like 10 minutes old! Would it matter if unknown to be true or untrue? Nope. If true does it disprove evolution? Well at least in the sense that "small changes over time lead to new species", yeah it disproves it as that "time" never existed. Instead those fossils were never really alive, just placed there because God was impatient or something (yeah I've heard this whole argument before, yet they never go quite as far as calling God impatient ).

I mean it's not an "evolution is wrong because" argument, but more like "evolution is just a ploy because science is wicked, the Earth is 4,000 years old and if you think otherwise you're damned to hell" argument .

[Shaede]

If the tree wasn't really 10 years old, then the surrounding area would show that. Whatever interacting with that area would show that. There would be an inconsistancy in that area, a sort of anomoly. We've never found anything like that, so the arguement is completely hypothetical with no examples of it ever occuring in reality (unless you have one). Thus it's just as pointless and unprovable as arguing the existance of God itself (an arguement it'll eventually lead to anyway).

If your life's philosophy is founded so far outside reality, then my advice would be to spend more time to learn about the only thing that's truly important while you're there.

[Ksandra]

I dunno I personally don't like being called stupid time and time again just because I happen to think we may not know everything. I don't believe in ID btw. Only interesting "Evidence" I've found on religion, was a study some had done to suggest that dinosaurs drown during the great flood. And it was more interesting than "omg I believe it's true".

I'm just tired of being told I'm an idiot just because I happen to believe that things are not so black-and-white all the time. And history has shown time and time again that as scientist learn more, they discover a lot of what they thought previously was wrong.

[Shaede]

I dunno I personally don't like being called stupid time and time again just because I happen to think we may not know everything.

Who's calling you stupid? I completely agree that we don't (or ever will) know everything.

Also, the Biblical great flood did not take place 66 million years ago, so I doubt the dinosaurs would have ever seen it (assuming it took place).

[Fhqwghads]

I think some people frown on other's beliefs because they seem outlandish. To me, someone who has to have "faith" in order to believe in a theory doesn't have as much common sense as someone who believes in theories which are supported by scientific analysis.

I work at a place that is filled with people who have PhDs and are incredibly intelligent. Some of them are still very religious. I have no idea how someone that smart can believe in something so obscure as a superior being who was responsible or even guided the development of this planet. I really think most of it boils down to fear of mortality. Nobody wants to face up to death with zero chance of existing past it. The whole concept of everything someone has experienced in their life vaporizing in an instant the moment the body stops functioning can be terrifying if you think about it long and hard enough. Most people would rather comfort themselves with delusions of life after death, whether it be going to heaven, reincarnated, becoming a god themselves, or whatever. Anything other than utter lack of existence.

Not only that, but belief in supreme beings has a tendency to bring out the worst in people, in stark contrast to what most belief systems try to preach. You wind up with organized religions doing literal battle with other organized religions (sup middle east) and millions of people dying for the sake of their beliefs over the course of history. If that's what belief in a higher power grants us, count me out. (Not to mention it's just common sense to not believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus in my opinion.)

However, I also think that society benefits from religion to a degree, because of its preventative properties. Most religions preach that it's wrong to steal, and rape, murder, etc., and the consequences of those actions are being sent to a place like hell. If that's what stops a lot of people from comitting those acts then I can't argue that belief in a higher power is a bad thing (barring the wars it causes.) If science were to prove without the shadow of a doubt that there was no god, the world probably would be in a much worse state than it is at this point. It would still be much better if society could function without having to believe in some big spook in the sky.

[Jeryhn]

So just relax sheesh, it's really ok for someone to believe in something different than you.

I agree, but it has its limits.

You can choose to not believe in evolution. You can choose not to believe in gravity. You can choose not to believe in plate tectonics. All of those are merely theories, after all.

But what is a theory? It's merely something that fits into reality rather well (or perfectly from our perspective). That is to say, that all the data in the world supports it. Will new information become available later that changes our ideas? Of course. We once thought humans evolved from Neanderthals, but we no longer believe that. It doesn't mean Neanderthal man didn't exist or wasn't extremely closely related to us, though. We were on the right track.

What evidence do we have supporting evolution?
- Selective Breeding: farms do it all the time. Plants and animals that have favoritable genes are bred together to make prime choices for food production. Dogs and cats are bred to look specific ways, with extremely differing sizes and colors.

- Fossils: All lifeforms have changed in an orderly manner over time for eons. You can literally track their steps from simular ancestors to what they look like today through fossil records. Sure we have missing links, but that's easily explained by the unconformities in the ground that occur during periods of erosion.

- Biogeography: Animals on isolated areas such as caves, islands, and lakes all resemble their neighbors on the mainland or larger body of water, but each isolated species is unique.

- Homologous Structures: All sorts of different life have a simular structural makeup, suggesting a common thread amongst them all.

- Embryology: Many embryos look the same.

- Hematology: Blood chemistry just so happens to follow taxonomy.

- Vestigial Structures: Creatures have body parts that no longer have any use or meaning. For example, snakes have traces of hind legs. Many cave animals have eyes that don't work. The human body has over 100 vestigial parts including the tail bone, body hair, canine teeth, wisdom teeth, the appendix, and ear muscles.

I'd challenge anyone to find a logical way to disprove the theory of evolution, especially through the use of religious literature.

This post puts the final nail in the coffin when it comes to Intelligent Design.
Period.

Many people claim Evolution is "just a theory". These people need a quick vocabulary lesson:

Theory, noun:
1) A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory

Notice the bold. The definition of "theory" when it comes to the realm of conjecture is listed as the absolute last definition of the word.

The only real x-factor when it comes to Evolution is what actually caused the electrical spark that caused carbon-based substances to bond together to hydrogen and oxygen, creating life. The fact that we exhibit intelligence is a product of chance, and nothing more.

Humans are so quick to believe they are something special just because they are the dominant species.

[Enkidu]

If the tree wasn't really 10 years old, then the surrounding area would show that. Whatever interacting with that area would show that. There would be an inconsistancy in that area, a sort of anomoly. We've never found anything like that, so the arguement is completely hypothetical with no examples of it ever occuring in reality (unless you have one). Thus it's just as pointless and unprovable as arguing the existance of God itself (an arguement it'll eventually lead to anyway).

If your life's philosophy is founded so far outside reality, then my advice would be to spend more time to learn about the only thing that's truly important while you're there.

You don't seem to understand that the "tree" in this case is just an example. Could a god make an Island appear out of nowhere that looks and feels as if it was millions of years old? What about a star? What about an Earth? It's a simple concept really, it just doesn't make much sense for a supreme being to work in this fashion. It's still 100% possible though.

It's really the only logical way to hold on to the literal translation of the Bible, which is obviously not how it was supposed to be read. That is, unless you take the "science is evil and they're trying to trick us" approach...

[Septimus]

The fact that we exhibit intelligence is a product of chance, and nothing more.

Looking at what is going on in the world today, that fact is highly debatable.

[Jeryhn]

The fact that we exhibit intelligence is a product of chance, and nothing more.

Looking at what is going on in the world today, that fact is highly debatable.

Provide an argument then.

[Septimus]

The fact that we exhibit intelligence is a product of chance, and nothing more.

Looking at what is going on in the world today, that fact is highly debatable.

Provide an argument then.

I would debate that we do not exhibit as much intelligence as we would like to think that we do, not that we are dumbasses by design or chance.

[Enkidu]

The only real x-factor when it comes to Evolution is what actually caused the electrical spark that caused carbon-based substances to bond together to hydrogen and oxygen, creating life. The fact that we exhibit intelligence is a product of chance, and nothing more.

No, abiogenesis is not a part of any evolutionary theory. Two completely seperate fields for good reason.

If people start arguing the semantics of "theory" you should know it's time to walk away anyways... If people cannot look at science with an open mind you aren't going to open their mind with a 10 minute diatribe on why "theory" doesn't mean "might be right".

[Shaede]

I would debate that we do not exhibit as much intelligence as we would like to think that we do, not that we are dumbasses by design or chance.

I agree. I do not think humans are nearly as intelligent as we believe ourselves to be. This is why I do not worship science or logic as a religion, but instead see it as our own reasoning for the processes of the universe which are infinatly beyond our comprehension. Ever wonder why the most renowned scientists throughout history (save one) have all been highly religious? When you look closely enough at existance you begin to see that which we can never understand. Many of us like to call that mystery "God".