Auto Refresh vs Conserve MP

[Ryushii]

hq staves: 10m+ merits: free

[Not Kuno]

gravity and other debuffs might not be important or difficult to land on xp mobs, but in big end game fights where a rdm is needed to debuff (specifically gravity in many of the fights in my ls) its not going to help if you can restore you mp 2 minutes faster.

Yeah, and you dont need merits or amazing gear to stick gravity on gods. Kirin is weak to Wind, for christ's sake. RDM is used to debuff in every fight, what do you think most LSs use them for, melee damage? Gods != difficult fights. If you have MP or accuracy problems as a RDM on gods, buy some damn HQ staves, or quit.

I'm not a rdm but you make it sound like they can magicly debuff anything like a magical enfeebling fairy. All I hear are complaints from our rdm being unable to land jack shit even with +50trillion enfeebling skill.

[MisterBob]

hq staves: 10m+ merits: free

HQ Wind Staff: 2m
Max Wind Merits: 150k xp. Assuming you get an average of 10k/hr, that means 15 hours of XPing. 2m takes a lot less than 15 hours to get.

Guess what? People beat Kirin with ease with 18 before merits even existed. If you can't do it now, then lolyou.

I'm not a rdm but you make it sound like they can magicly debuff anything like a magical enfeebling fairy. All I hear are complaints from our rdm being unable to land jack shit even with +50trillion enfeebling skill.

On Kirin, or something actually difficult? My BLM can land Gravity on Kirin rather reliably with HQ Wind + Enfeebling gear. Yes, on Wyrms and such, you need merits and great gear to enfeeble successfully. But on Sky stuff? Blah.

[aurik]

My opinion: acc merits (gods etc)
And yes, this conversation does seem one sided. One side is giving exact figures, the other is saying "oh, i saved 40 mp on a cure4 once! conserve mp must be better!" Look at the post I made about the maximum mp a RDM can output. If your going to eb active in a fight for more than one convert cycle, then there's really no way for conserve mp to catch up. otherwise, yes, it is situational. oh and btw, when someone gives me snippity little comments, i have a tendency to reply the same way back to them

There is a difficulty in generating exact numbers from conserve MP due to its inherent random nature. That said, I think we agreed on a 7.5% overall reduction as a "good estimate".

That said, the amount of MP a rdm can use in 1 10min convert cycle, without the use of MP recovery medicines:
1000~ base MP (I know RDMs that can convert up 1200, but that's exceptional)
600~ refresh
600~ ballad x2
100~ from resting (that's less than 4 resting ticks in 10 minutes, a fairly conservative number)
200 verm/dalm

In addition, the presence of ES+Drain for 1 minute out of every 10 is a cure3 for 25 mp less. So, we will consider AutoRefresh only regenerates 180mp over the cycle.

I'm now going to list all the concessions that I'm making in FAVOR of auto refresh.
- No dalm+chapeau combo which adds 200mp/10min
- No convert merits which favor conserve mp
- No sanction
- No aspirable targets which adds at least 100mp/10min at a very conservative average of 20mp per aspir
- Only 4 rest ticks at 25mp/tic, when a good red mage could probably squeeze out 35-40mp/tic and probably can pick up more than 4 ticks per convert cycle

Given all these concessions, autorefresh regenerates 180mp, which at a 7.5% conservation rate means you need to spend 2400 MP. In the above scenario, with all the concessions in favor of auto-refresh, the red mage still has access to 2500mp.

So, clear mind wins, by a nearly-negligible 1 mp per minute.

[Jeryhn]

As with virtually every situation in this game and particularly those involving RDM, it's situationally dependent.

Exactly! However, as an RDM, I am always casting Slow and Paralyze, soon to be Tier2 versions, our strongest debuffs, after I'm done unlocking Bloodpacts (5/6). Occasionally I cast Bind, Silence or Gravity. It would be better to cap out Ice and Earth accuracy, or get a mix of Ice4-Earth3-Wind3, than to offset my Convert timer from my Divine Seal timer.

I have 4 subjobs: WHM, BLM, SMN and DRK.
Two of them get used (WHM & DRK).

My Duelist's Chapeau also saves me that 20mp per minute. It never comes off (not even for Fastcast whoring of Haste and Refresh omg).

In short, my MP in an exp party, is never a problem, unless some random melee doesn't have Utsusemi up on Fang Rush.

Sorry for the late reply. A server went down at work and everyone's bitchy.

[Ryushii]

where did u get 180 mp per convert cycle? its 200

[Septimus]

My opinion: acc merits (gods etc)
And yes, this conversation does seem one sided. One side is giving exact figures, the other is saying "oh, i saved 40 mp on a cure4 once! conserve mp must be better!" Look at the post I made about the maximum mp a RDM can output. If your going to eb active in a fight for more than one convert cycle, then there's really no way for conserve mp to catch up. otherwise, yes, it is situational. oh and btw, when someone gives me snippity little comments, i have a tendency to reply the same way back to them

Look, you just want people to say that you can get away with only subbing SMN and that is just not going to happen here. Just like it is silly to compare THF, NIN, and MNK subs only using Mug, Suiton: Ichi, and Martial Arts; BLM sub brings a whole list of utility that includes, but it not limited to Conserve MP.

If you want Auto Refresh, you might as well just sub PLD. At least with PLD you can Flash once every 36 seconds or so, that will probably save more hits that Aerial Armor will.

You can hold onto your view that /SMN is better, but the vast majority of Red Mages prefer /BLM for a reason, and it is not free warps.

[aurik]

where did u get 180 mp per convert cycle? its 200

In addition, the presence of ES+Drain for 1 minute out of every 10 is a cure3 for 25 mp less. So, we will consider AutoRefresh only regenerates 180mp over the cycle.

Please read everything I wrote, instead of just the things you want.

[Ryushii]

oh i see what your saying kind of

[MisterBob]

that doesn't make any sense, you compared 180 mp (9 minutes) of auto refresh to 10 minutes of ballad, refresh, and auto refresh

No, he didn't. Reread it, god

[Byrd]

However, as an RDM, I am always casting Slow and Paralyze, soon to be Tier2 versions, our strongest debuffs, after I'm done unlocking Bloodpacts (5/6).

Side note: the MP difference between Slow & Slow II and Paralyze vs. Paralyze II is ~40, in situations where my MP might become an issue, I've periodically gone back to using Slow or Paralyze, as the effect/MP is not as strong as I would like.

I have 4 subjobs: WHM, BLM, SMN and DRK.
Two of them get used (WHM & DRK).

I've got five subjobs and frequently use three: BLM WHM DRK (BRD NIN on the side). I get frequent requests for /WHM, /BLM and /DRK. /NIN is requested for kiting, /BRD was actually used in a couple of odd situations, and I've had a couple requests for /WAR (that's next).

Never, ever, in my 3 years of playing RDM (1 1/2 at 75) has anyone ever asked me to sub /SMN for any reason. That tells me all I need to know about /SMN right there.

[Raineer]

Look, you just want people to say that you can get away with only subbing SMN and that is just not going to happen here.

Only a retard would state that, but only a retard would state "/BLM is better in every conceivable situation." There are many retards abound.

edit: why don't we go ahead and toss /BRD into this (it's not as bad as you think), omg another situational sub! i hope that doesn't hurt anyone's brain

[aurik]

PLD sub is not a bad choice at all for certain things. Flash > AA.

[Jeryhn]

However, as an RDM, I am always casting Slow and Paralyze, soon to be Tier2 versions, our strongest debuffs, after I'm done unlocking Bloodpacts (5/6).

Side note: the MP difference between Slow & Slow II and Paralyze vs. Paralyze II is ~40, in situations where my MP might become an issue, I've periodically gone back to using Slow or Paralyze, as the effect/MP is not as strong as I would like.

In EXP parties and most Dynamis, I would stick to Tier 1.
HNMs and Xarcabard NMs are Tier 2 all the way.

I have 4 subjobs: WHM, BLM, SMN and DRK.
Two of them get used (WHM & DRK).

I've got five subjobs and frequently use three: BLM WHM DRK (BRD NIN on the side). I get frequent requests for /WHM, /BLM and /DRK. /NIN is requested for kiting, /BRD was actually used in a couple of odd situations, and I've had a couple requests for /WAR (that's next).

Never, ever, in my 3 years of playing RDM (1 1/2 at 75) has anyone ever asked me to sub /SMN for any reason. That tells me all I need to know about /SMN right there.

I only get requested for /BLM when Sleepga is needed, and in short supply (Assault). /DRK for Stun, and /WHM is my bread-and-butter.

I only use /SMN for when I want to take screenshots of my 1000+ HP & 1000+ MP without the use of Zenith.

[Ryushii]

actually, my ls requests that i go to sky /smn everytime. we always have enough escapers, and when we do byakko/kirin/seiryu i am needed to refresh tank pt and run AA rotation
also, I do BRD sometimes, and it's nice besides the gimped mp

[Jeryhn]

actually, my ls requests that i go to sky /smn everytime. we always have enough escapers, and when we do byakko/kirin/seiryu i am needed to refresh tank pt and run AA rotation

Your linkshell should probably recruit ninjas. At least they can wear that shijin gear you're fighting sky gods for.

Question: What do you do when Seiryu and Byakko fuck your Bloodpact timer with Paralyze?

[Victalyssa]

I think I've subbed smn once in my entire FFXI career? The only reason I even did that was because our whm forgot to change subs before he went to Faf, and he was too lazy to run back again.

I agree with 95% of the folks here in that, even if I may not get that full 20mp/min back with /blm, the other aspects that /blm brings to the table far outweigh the two cure 1's that I'd have at my disposal.

[Ryushii]

They uh...don't? I always request paralyna before i do the BP lol, our whms are quick. And we have plenty of NIN, its just easier to tank those with PLD (demigods in Kirin).

[Krandor]

If your LS needs RDMs to go /SMN for Byakko or Seiryu I think you have bigger concerns then which sub is better ._.

[Raineer]

I think I've subbed smn once in my entire FFXI career? The only reason I even did that was because our whm forgot to change subs before he went to Faf, and he was too lazy to run back again.

I agree with 95% of the folks here in that, even if I may not get that full 20mp/min back with /blm, the other aspects that /blm brings to the table far outweigh the two cure 1's that I'd have at my disposal.

Funny thing is, this was never a /BLM vs /SMN debate.