Auto Refresh vs Conserve MP

[rydiu]

My Duelist's Chapeau also saves me that 20mp per minute. It never comes off (not even for Fastcast whoring of Haste and Refresh omg).

lolnoob.. ppl like u are not worthy of duelist's chapeau

mine comes off in conjunction with my duelist's tabard coming on...the difference in recast is rather staggering... especially if u haste urself zomg

[Victalyssa]

I think I've subbed smn once in my entire FFXI career? The only reason I even did that was because our whm forgot to change subs before he went to Faf, and he was too lazy to run back again.

I agree with 95% of the folks here in that, even if I may not get that full 20mp/min back with /blm, the other aspects that /blm brings to the table far outweigh the two cure 1's that I'd have at my disposal.

Funny thing is, this was never a /BLM vs /SMN debate.

Right.

[wartortle]

It's hard to discuss conserve mp vs auto refresh without it being /blm vs /smn.

Well you could, but you'd be ignoring why the question is being asked. Unless you're talking about Magnetic Earring vs. the Garrison Refresh Earring on a RDM/WHM in garrison.

[Ryushii]

I definately said, boldfaced, that this wasn't on the first page.

[Raineer]

I think I've subbed smn once in my entire FFXI career? The only reason I even did that was because our whm forgot to change subs before he went to Faf, and he was too lazy to run back again.

I agree with 95% of the folks here in that, even if I may not get that full 20mp/min back with /blm, the other aspects that /blm brings to the table far outweigh the two cure 1's that I'd have at my disposal.

Funny thing is, this was never a /BLM vs /SMN debate.

Right.

It's not out of the realm of reason to discuss it in a vaccuum. Are there always aspirable targets everywhere you go? Since aspir is the only MP-RELATED tool you get with the sub, then the MP discussion ends there.

It's up to the individual player if they need ES, Sleepga, elem debuffs (which are better cast by a BLM).

I'm just surprised people can't get it through their damn heads that RDM's find themself in the position of "I just need to go to X event to be a manawhore, WHAT GIVES ME THE MOST MANA?". God forbid someone brings a warp cudgel without needing warp to get home.

[Ashael]

A lot of these arguments are why I only allow intelligent party leaders to pick my subjob. Some slackjaw dual-wielder wearing STR rings is hardly someone who should be making value judgements about something as nuanced as magery. Sorry, all self-righteous indignation and such.

Uninformed melees see /blm and only think what it does for the RDM. They see /whm and see that it's far superior, because it gives them Blindna and Erase, far more important than movement spells, right, it's better for the party right?
Well unfortunatley, that's their ignorant reasoning. It's wrong. Beyond Aspir, Drain, Warp, Escape, Tractor, ES, Conserve MP and the godly Sleepga, /BLM also provides an additional tier of Enfeebles. You know that skill we're A+ in? The whole, we debuff the mobs, the BRD buffs the party thing? Well with /blm with have an ace in the hole, even if it's not at the same skill as Enfeebling Magic, it still allows us to support our prime duty.

Let's say you're trotting thru Ru'Hmet, slaughtering Aerns (insert other beastman type mobs if necessary). You're the only Dispel/Refresher, there is no BLM, and you are fighting THF or MNK mobs. The melee complain of the freak's evasion. All you can do is cast Gravity and make sure he has no buffs on right? You are fighting PLD versions, and the melee damage is nerfed slightly, just Dispel all buffs, Dia him, and grin and bear it?

No! Elemental Debuffs. A few extra points will always help right? THF|MNK|High Eva mobs? Throw a cheap ol' Frost out there to help out. High Def/VIT mob? Throw out a Choke.

I feel remarkably gimped, when I go /whm. It's necessary frequently, when an extra Erase is needed in the tank party, or going meritting and the only other mage is a BRD/NIN. Doesn't make it any less lacking in capabilites.

In conclusion, say no to melees choosing mage subs. /BLM will nearly always win.

[Victalyssa]

I think I've subbed smn once in my entire FFXI career? The only reason I even did that was because our whm forgot to change subs before he went to Faf, and he was too lazy to run back again.

I agree with 95% of the folks here in that, even if I may not get that full 20mp/min back with /blm, the other aspects that /blm brings to the table far outweigh the two cure 1's that I'd have at my disposal.

Funny thing is, this was never a /BLM vs /SMN debate.

Right.

It's not out of the realm of reason to discuss it in a vaccuum. Are there always aspirable targets everywhere you go? Since aspir is the only MP-RELATED tool you get with the sub, then the MP discussion ends there.

It's up to the individual player if they need ES, Sleepga, elem debuffs (which are better cast by a BLM).

I'm just surprised people can't get it through their damn heads that RDM's find themself in the position of "I just need to go to X event to be a manawhore, WHAT GIVES ME THE MOST MANA?". God forbid someone brings a warp cudgel without needing warp to get home.

I actually prefer /whm or /drk at HNM events, but that's a moot point considering neither offer mana restore job traits. Everything in this game is so ridiculously situational. ~_~

[wartortle]

I'm just surprised people can't get it through their damn heads that RDM's find themself in the position of "I just need to go to X event to be a manawhore, WHAT GIVES ME THE MOST MANA?". God forbid someone brings a warp cudgel without needing warp to get home.

That question involves a discussion of maximizing your HP and MP on convert.

[aurik]

I think I've subbed smn once in my entire FFXI career? The only reason I even did that was because our whm forgot to change subs before he went to Faf, and he was too lazy to run back again.

I agree with 95% of the folks here in that, even if I may not get that full 20mp/min back with /blm, the other aspects that /blm brings to the table far outweigh the two cure 1's that I'd have at my disposal.

Funny thing is, this was never a /BLM vs /SMN debate.

Right.

It's not out of the realm of reason to discuss it in a vaccuum. Are there always aspirable targets everywhere you go? Since aspir is the only MP-RELATED tool you get with the sub, then the MP discussion ends there.

It's up to the individual player if they need ES, Sleepga, elem debuffs (which are better cast by a BLM).

I'm just surprised people can't get it through their damn heads that RDM's find themself in the position of "I just need to go to X event to be a manawhore, WHAT GIVES ME THE MOST MANA?". God forbid someone brings a warp cudgel without needing warp to get home.

It is, however, ignoring the benefits of subbing for Clear Mind and/or Autorefresh if you ignore the baggage that necessarily comes along with it. For example, ES will, at WORST, save you 25 mp every 10 minute as ES+Drain is a Cure3 for 21 mana.

I mean, you could argue it in a vacuum, but SE is unlikely to enable you to choose between the 2 without choosing between the rest, so it's a moot point. "Hey guys, arhats gear on Paladin versus on a Ninja, go!"

[Raineer]

Everything in this game is so ridiculously situational. ~_~

Totally agreed, and unfortunately once you have AF2+dalm you could just go /DRG for the haste of refresh/haste chains and you'd be fine for 98% of HNM in this game.

[Ryushii]

Last time i checked, ele debuffs were based off Ele skill...which means they're gimped on rdm. And how often end game is there no BLM in the party?

[Jeryhn]

My Duelist's Chapeau also saves me that 20mp per minute. It never comes off (not even for Fastcast whoring of Haste and Refresh omg).

lolnoob.. ppl like u are not worthy of duelist's chapeau

mine comes off in conjunction with my duelist's tabard coming on...the difference in recast is rather staggering... especially if u haste urself zomg

A good RDM can maintain a Haste and Refresh cycle on his entire party without the need Fast Cast outside of their natural job trait.

[Jeryhn]

Beyond Aspir, Drain, Warp, Escape, Tractor, ES, Conserve MP and the godly Sleepga, /BLM also provides an additional tier of Enfeebles. You know that skill we're A+ in? ...Elemental Debuffs. A few extra points will always help right? THF|MNK|High Eva mobs? Throw a cheap ol' Frost out there to help out. High Def/VIT mob? Throw out a Choke.

...Are you suggesting that the /BLM elemental debuffs are based on enfeebling skill?

[aurik]

A lot of these arguments are why I only allow intelligent party leaders to pick my subjob. Some slackjaw dual-wielder wearing STR rings is hardly someone who should be making value judgements about something as nuanced as magery. Sorry, all self-righteous indignation and such.

Uninformed melees see /blm and only think what it does for the RDM. They see /whm and see that it's far superior, because it gives them Blindna and Erase, far more important than movement spells, right, it's better for the party right?
Well unfortunatley, that's their ignorant reasoning. It's wrong. Beyond Aspir, Drain, Warp, Escape, Tractor, ES, Conserve MP and the godly Sleepga, /BLM also provides an additional tier of Enfeebles. You know that skill we're A+ in? The whole, we debuff the mobs, the BRD buffs the party thing? Well with /blm with have an ace in the hole, even if it's not at the same skill as Enfeebling Magic, it still allows us to support our prime duty.

Let's say you're trotting thru Ru'Hmet, slaughtering Aerns (insert other beastman type mobs if necessary). You're the only Dispel/Refresher, there is no BLM, and you are fighting THF or MNK mobs. The melee complain of the freak's evasion. All you can do is cast Gravity and make sure he has no buffs on right? You are fighting PLD versions, and the melee damage is nerfed slightly, just Dispel all buffs, Dia him, and grin and bear it?

No! Elemental Debuffs. A few extra points will always help right? THF|MNK|High Eva mobs? Throw a cheap ol' Frost out there to help out. High Def/VIT mob? Throw out a Choke.

I feel remarkably gimped, when I go /whm. It's necessary frequently, when an extra Erase is needed in the tank party, or going meritting and the only other mage is a BRD/NIN. Doesn't make it any less lacking in capabilites.

In conclusion, say no to melees choosing mage subs. /BLM will nearly always win.

BLM enfeebles are weak sauce. Don't get me wrong, I use them on my BLM--recently we've been levelling in Bibiki, and Frost could be the difference between missing and hitting chain 5 on a Blagger. But there are very few situations where an extra person able to statusna people is inferior to -5 agi + 3/sec dot. The real reason you'd sub blm is for sleepga and escape.

[Raineer]

Beyond Aspir, Drain, Warp, Escape, Tractor, ES, Conserve MP and the godly Sleepga, /BLM also provides an additional tier of Enfeebles. You know that skill we're A+ in? ...Elemental Debuffs. A few extra points will always help right? THF|MNK|High Eva mobs? Throw a cheap ol' Frost out there to help out. High Def/VIT mob? Throw out a Choke.

...Are you suggesting that the /BLM elemental debuffs are based on enfeebling skill?

I hope he didn't mean that, but regardless the DoT is based on INT gap which endgame BLM's should trump a RDM on. Not to mention they are easier to land but anything short of HNM I landed them fine.

[Ashael]

...Are you suggesting that the /BLM elemental debuffs are based on enfeebling skill?

Nope caught that and did a ninja edit. Didn't notice that if people were being particularly dense they could assume that was what I was implying.

[Ashael]

Last time i checked, ele debuffs were based off Ele skill...which means they're gimped on rdm. And how often end game is there no BLM in the party?

End-game Merits? 95% of the time BLMs get the shaft. Unless we're duo/trioing sea, then there's no DoTs getting cast.
End-game HNM/Dynamis/Events? .5%. In this situation, it's not necessary, because there's also a BRD. In dynamis, the only place you wouldn't use /blm is Xarcabard just doing the NMs, or if there were 3-4 other RDM/BLM so you roll /DRK for CStun duty. Limbus/Sea sleepga is almost always necessary. On specific HNM/Kings/Gods what not, sure you don't need Sleepga, but just running as Refresh/Haste whore is sorta self-defeating when BRDs do that aspect of our jobs better.

[Jeryhn]

Last time i checked, ele debuffs were based off Ele skill...which means they're gimped on rdm. And how often end game is there no BLM in the party?

End-game Merits? 95% of the time BLMs get the shaft. Unless we're duo/trioing sea, then there's no DoTs getting cast.
End-game HNM/Dynamis/Events? .5%. In this situation, it's not necessary, because there's also a BRD. In dynamis, the only place you wouldn't use /blm is Xarcabard just doing the NMs, or if there were 3-4 other RDM/BLM so you roll /DRK for CStun duty. Limbus/Sea sleepga is almost always necessary. On specific HNM/Kings/Gods what not, sure you don't need Sleepga, but just running as Refresh/Haste whore is sorta self-defeating when BRDs do that aspect of our jobs better.

Comparing BRDs to RDMs in enhancing terms is like comparing apples and oranges, when Bards can choose to enhance attack and accuracy of party members, and our methods of Slow, Refresh and Haste stack together.

The "RDM shouldn't play only support because BRD does it 'better'" argument is null.

[Mifaco]

Some slackjaw dual-wielder wearing STR rings

hay maw! come look at dis crazy rdm!

[Lylie]

A lot of these arguments are why I only allow intelligent party leaders to pick my subjob. Some slackjaw dual-wielder wearing STR rings is hardly someone who should be making value judgements about something as nuanced as magery. Sorry, all self-righteous indignation and such.

Uninformed melees see /blm and only think what it does for the RDM. They see /whm and see that it's far superior, because it gives them Blindna and Erase, far more important than movement spells, right, it's better for the party right?
Well unfortunatley, that's their ignorant reasoning. It's wrong. Beyond Aspir, Drain, Warp, Escape, Tractor, ES, Conserve MP and the godly Sleepga, /BLM also provides an additional tier of Enfeebles. You know that skill we're A+ in? The whole, we debuff the mobs, the BRD buffs the party thing? Well with /blm with have an ace in the hole, even if it's not at the same skill as Enfeebling Magic, it still allows us to support our prime duty.

Let's say you're trotting thru Ru'Hmet, slaughtering Aerns (insert other beastman type mobs if necessary). You're the only Dispel/Refresher, there is no BLM, and you are fighting THF or MNK mobs. The melee complain of the freak's evasion. All you can do is cast Gravity and make sure he has no buffs on right? You are fighting PLD versions, and the melee damage is nerfed slightly, just Dispel all buffs, Dia him, and grin and bear it?

No! Elemental Debuffs. A few extra points will always help right? THF|MNK|High Eva mobs? Throw a cheap ol' Frost out there to help out. High Def/VIT mob? Throw out a Choke.

I feel remarkably gimped, when I go /whm. It's necessary frequently, when an extra Erase is needed in the tank party, or going meritting and the only other mage is a BRD/NIN. Doesn't make it any less lacking in capabilites.

In conclusion, say no to melees choosing mage subs. /BLM will nearly always win.

Right~

Because casting Choke is way better than being able to cast Erase, Curaga I and II, Paralyna (etc.).

I don't see either, why you want to Sleepga mobs in a Merit PT. And if you need MP, just buy a couple MP whore gears (not hard to find if you check the AH for 2min), so all the Aspir / Drain argument is lame.