Auto Refresh vs Conserve MP

[Ryushii]

1 mp a tick auto refresh vs 25 blm ability conserve mp

friend (i use that term loosely)=edgie

you would need to spend approx 270mp per minute to keep up with auto refresh if that's the case. that seems easy to do, but in order to keep up with that you would need to spend that much mp every minute at least while the sub is being used for it to be equal. thats 2.7k every 10 minutes in a normal xp pt

[miokomioko]

Q: What does Gravity do?

......wow

[The Blackrose]

well, thank you for your warm reception. anyone have any honest replies?

I think you have a better chance at getting out with whatever dignity you have left intact than getting an "honest reply."

Seriously. Exit stage left.

EDIT: Holy mother of page 3 already.

[darkdeath]

what part of conserve MP > autofreresh (i think unless its a like 5/tick) u didnt understand?

[rydiu]

So you admit it secretly is SMN vs. BLM.

Even if conserve mp was only 4-5% effective, it would still beat 1 tic auto-refresh because you can regain mp much faster than you can spend it unless you're nuking or healing people, in which case you can regain mp insanely faster than they can regain HP...

conclusion? unless you're PLing somebody in the dunes, go with the "Conserve MP"

[Delekii]

Not to :shock horror: actually discuss the topic, but,

I think people are overstating the effect of Conserve MP when comparing to Auto-Refresh. I am not an Auto-Refresh user, my SMN sub is still underleveled for my WHM, but I do like to actually understand the mechanics behind the game.

If the tests are true, to maintain an average 20mp/minute saving at 7.5% which is around the right amount for BLM main conserve MP, they need to spend 267MP a minute. That is not a small amount of MP, especially considering Auto-Refresh always works, even while Tiamat is flying and the PLD's are curing themselves... etc. There are very few combat situations in which anyone using Auto-Refresh or Conserve MP would be at full MP (the only circumstance in which Auto-refresh is not active), but there are plenty of times in which such casters are not casting spells (and hence Conserve MP is not active) - eg resting, periods of Magic-immunity, flying wyrms where the PLDs cure themselves, etc. It only takes one minute of inactivity (for example, resting while someone else covers curing to make the best use of clear mind) and you need to spend double in the next minute to catch up the averages.. etc. In an ideal world, you need to spend about 260mp a minute average over the course of the entire battle for Conserve MP > Auto Refresh to be true.

In general, yes, I think conserve MP > Auto-Refresh. But really, in many situations it just isnt the case, and it certainly isnt OMG difference at any time.

[rydiu]

I think anybody who subs smn just for auto-refresh is (to put it nicely) lacking experience playing this game..and maybe lacking in a brain also.....

The only reason sub-smn is ever used is to give people aerial-armor when its needed....not for auto-refresh.

[Delekii]

I think anybody who subs smn just for auto-refresh is (to put it nicely) lacking experience playing this game..and maybe lacking in a brain also.....

The only reason sub-smn is ever used is to give people aerial-armor when its needed....not for auto-refresh.

Except that, like I JUST said in the post prior to yours, in terms of MP, it is superior in situations in which you spend less than an average of 267MP every minute over the course of the battle.

Yes, there are situations where you need the other things that /blm gives you, but there are situations where you dont, too.

[Epical]

That was the quickest ass-raping ever (at least since we figured out Tahn was a lolmeleesmn).

[rydiu]

it is superior in situations in which you spend less than an average of 267MP every minute over the course of the battle.

Umm you just generalized that if you're spending 250mp per minute. If that's the case - you want conserve MP, not auto-refresh.

Especially for a RDM, if you're spending that much or less mp per minute, you're probably doing support role type things. At any time that rate can easily go way over your arbitrary amount...not to mention you might want /blm spells for god-knows-what....

There are a few situations where having that precise average is superior.

Lets list them:

PLing somebody in the duens.

...
...
...

Yeah, big list.

[Ryushii]

The thing is, do you have 250 mp a minute to spend? Let's take a lvl 75 rdm (lol) for example. Lets's say you've just used all your mp and converted. Really with the best gear you coudl get the max mp you would have from that would be 1000 mp. Now with refresh thats another 600 available mp. Add on double ballad (if you have it) thats another 600 mp. Using all that mp you would get back approximately 150 mp back that you would be able to spend. That leaves you at 2350/2700 mp that you would need to spend to match auto refresh. The rest you would need to rest to recover. So yes, if you will be using every last MP, or some ethers or other mp recovery things, then you might break even.

[Not Kuno]

If you're keeping up a refresh/haste order, enfeebling and curing then yes you do go through your mp rather quickly.

[Delekii]

Well, RDM is a very different kettle of fish than the other jobs for which this is a consideration...


RDM hardly ever subs SMN, because they have very real uses for the rest of the things that BLM can offer, and also barely ever rest - HP to MP ratio is just as important and SMN sub wont help with that.

There are really only two other cases in the game which this will be an issue in, and that is WHM, and BLU. BLU in an XP situation wont necessarily spend 260 MP a minute, that is a fairly large whack from a job with a low base MP. A lot of BLU dot comes from sword as well. WHM, is on a case by case basis. A 4 person haste cycle uses only 160mp every 3 minutes, or 53mp a minute, so if you are spending 210mp a minute curing in a merit pt, then conserve mp averages out to more. In a good merit PT on WHM, you wont be spending that much, because you wont be recieving that much back - assuming Refresh body, sanction refresh, and one refresh source (usually bard), you get 5mp/tick which is around 60/minute.= (not exactly, but you get the point). You cant spend more than you're recieving and maintain it without resting (during which time Auto-refresh is gaining ground on conserve mp).

Again, I am not arguing for Auto Refresh over Conserve MP, and I almost never use /SMN myself (it is at 34ish, and I use it when I need AA, which is almost never), but the math behind it shows that the difference is not large, is heavily situational, and is not necessarily always showing that Conserve MP is better.

[Squirrels]

I think Nirokun summed up this thread the best.

[Anyway]

For fuck sakeeeeees.... can't you make it so only people with like 50-100 posts or above can make new threads?

[DeadLegend]

I thought that was a rule anyway, but that probably wouldn't work as a non-automatically-enforced rule.

[Ryany]

The biggest thing IMO about not subbing blm or drk is that the party likely will be without a tractor. Most parties in the new areas will only have 1 job from the rdm and whm category. Even if they do have both, the rdm will probably be subbing whm for curagas/-na spells. I'll take the ability to tractor and emergency backup sleep (if whm) in burn parties any day over everything else. Regardless of how good your party is, you will likely push your limits with riskier pulling to get better xp. (or just get a bad fang rush / deadly dive for over 1k) Let me tell you, it's not a pretty sight trying to raise people in the middle of 5 enemies without tractor.

[Raineer]

Here's your numbers, which you already know by now:

You'd have to spend 2800mp+ in 10 minutes for Conserve MP > Auto Refresh (with the trait and ONLY the trait in a vacuum).

BLM's swear by conserve MP like they have to give up their first born to think otherwise (for sorta good reason, lol BLM/SMN).

As an RDM, I played both and definately had a TON more MP as /SMN than as /BLM, not only in max but quite easily more in recovered MP.

Kuno is very smart but has a MNK-type mentality to this. You cast 300mp nukes and see Conserve MP trigger and think OMGWTFBBQ I just saved 150 mana, conservemp>alll!!!!!!!!1...which is much like the monk that only gauges themself by their largest punch (omg i punched for 224 critz, i am gawd with my 65% acc), over time A/R blows it away as long as you're not spending more than the 2800 (BLM's can maybe do this, but I didn't see you mention a job.)

Conserve MP on BLM also has modifiers which don't apply to RDM (I pray you're not using conserve MP gear), but when just talking about the trait in a vacuum it's not even fucking close, anyone with half a brain could see auto refresh blows it away.

All that being said, I've personally been in like 25 alla threads about this, you could have found it easily there.

[darkdeath]

lol @ 1k MP on RDM 1200 ftw. and stil i use every bit of it to do my job correctly (omg exagerate)

[Raineer]

If you're keeping up a refresh/haste order, enfeebling and curing then yes you do go through your mp rather quickly.

Not 280/min, not even close. You don't have to run a full refresh and haste chain every minute.