Auto Refresh vs Conserve MP

[Raineer]

Aurik's reply is more of what I was looking for. So stacking haste does make a 2% haste item actually more than 2% haste?

And about the defending ring statement, I've been meaning to ask about that, because I was under the impression it all factored in simultaneously.. For instance target hits you for 100 damage. Are you saying they measure seperately? Earth staff would provide 20 damage off alone, but only 18.2 dmg in conjunction with Arhat's Gi?

No, they're cumulative, not multiplicative. So if you have 40% damage reduction, and you get hit by 1000 needles alone, you take 600 damage. If you were to put on a d.ring, you take 500 dmg. The net reduction from the d.ring is 100 / 600 = 16.6~%.

Similarly, (ignoring caps / feasibility for illustration purposes) if you somehow had 50% haste and someone used a spell that gave you "25% haste", you would attack twice as fast as before.

No you wouldnt. You would attack 16.6% faster. You normally have 100% speed. With +50% haste you would have 150% speed. Add 25% haste to that and you would get a 25/150 = 16.6% bonus.

Nope, aurik is right.

Assume a 100 delay weapon.

You have 50% haste (magically somehow), you are now attacking with 50 delay.

Someone casts 25% haste spell on your 100 delay weapon, that's now 75% haste.

75% haste on 100 delay is 25 delay.

25 delay is "twice as fast" as 50 delay.

That is why the more haste you stack, the more it adds. Adding 6% once you already have 25-30% haste is alot more than 6%.

[Garret]

I think /Pld is the answer. Auto-Refresh & Cover, what's not to love?

In all seriousness, if Auto Refresh was everything it was cracked up to be /PLD would be all the rage. You get auto refresh AND Flash AND Holy! Not to mention that every 15 minutes you can use shield bash to stun.

Black Mage offers more than just Conserve MP, Conserve MP is just an awesome bonus.

Holy is level 55 though =P

Curses! I guess we will have to make due with Banish II...

Now you're talking, where's my Moldavite!

[Stellar]

Well it's still 6% faster than your original no-haste-at-all attack speed, but depending on when you factor in the 6% provides more than 6% haste. This still doesn't say much about stacking haste gear, because although 2% haste gear provides over 2% from your "new" delay, it still provides the exact same attack speed increase as it would alone without any gear. Right? .-.

[aurik]

Ah cool, thanks. That was my original impression of how -dmg gear worked. Another question about that. Any idea where the percentage comes from? If it factor's in before defense and vit? I'm assuming it does, because otherwise lowering def. and vit. would make the %dmg reduced higher..

About the topic. Wow, /pld for rdm sounds pretty nice for some situations. In merit situations where no aspir is available, you typically refresh yourself, the bard and haste 4 melee which = 240mp per 3 minutes. So if you're not using 570mp to cure/nuke/enfeeble per 3 minutes, than the autorefresh would provide better mp. Plus flash and defense to boot!

I'm pretty sure that -dmg% reduction comes after def/vit calculations, but that's from programmers intuition rather than hard data, so I would love to see data on the subject if anyone has any.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Aurik's reply is more of what I was looking for. So stacking haste does make a 2% haste item actually more than 2% haste?

And about the defending ring statement, I've been meaning to ask about that, because I was under the impression it all factored in simultaneously.. For instance target hits you for 100 damage. Are you saying they measure seperately? Earth staff would provide 20 damage off alone, but only 18.2 dmg in conjunction with Arhat's Gi?

No, they're cumulative, not multiplicative. So if you have 40% damage reduction, and you get hit by 1000 needles alone, you take 600 damage. If you were to put on a d.ring, you take 500 dmg. The net reduction from the d.ring is 100 / 600 = 16.6~%.

Similarly, (ignoring caps / feasibility for illustration purposes) if you somehow had 50% haste and someone used a spell that gave you "25% haste", you would attack twice as fast as before.

No you wouldnt. You would attack 16.6% faster. You normally have 100% speed. With +50% haste you would have 150% speed. Add 25% haste to that and you would get a 25/150 = 16.6% bonus.

Nope, aurik is right.

Assume a 100 delay weapon.

You have 50% haste (magically somehow), you are now attacking with 50 delay.

Someone casts 25% haste spell on your 100 delay weapon, that's now 75% haste.

75% haste on 100 delay is 25 delay.

25 delay is "twice as fast" as 50 delay.

That is why the more haste you stack, the more it adds. Adding 6% once you already have 25-30% haste is alot more than 6%.

150% is 1.5x as much as 100. Thus you will attack 1.5x as fast and you will have new delay=olddelay/1.5. 200% is 2x100% so you will get new delay=olddelay/2.

We know recast times work like you said but I doubt melee attacks do as well. I at least think its more logical to have a 100% bonus not being 0 delay.

[Jeryhn]

You normally have 100% speed. With +50% haste you would have 150% speed. Add 25% haste to that and you would get a 25/150 = 16.6% bonus.

You're suggesting Haste has diminishing returns as you stack it (like damage reduction armor). You're incorrect, as evidenced here on BG before using /recast tests.

Go searching.

[aurik]

I recommend anything written by Nny on the subject. Also, 100% haste would be 0 delay, but there's a hard limit of about 70% total cumulative haste regardless of the source, meaning the fastest you can go is just over 3x normal speed.

[Stellar]

but damage reduction armor doesn't have diminishing returns...

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I recommend anything written by Nny on the subject. Also, 100% haste would be 0 delay, but there's a hard limit of about 70% total cumulative haste regardless of the source, meaning the fastest you can go is just over 3x normal speed.

I would like to see said posts, have any links? I just find this a really really stupid way for SE to make their game.

[aurik]

I recommend anything written by Nny on the subject. Also, 100% haste would be 0 delay, but there's a hard limit of about 70% total cumulative haste regardless of the source, meaning the fastest you can go is just over 3x normal speed.

I would like to see said posts, have any links? I just find this a really really stupid way for SE to make their game.

1) lol
2) search function, yo.
http://www.theorderls.com/phpBB2/viewto ... =haste+nny

[Jeryhn]

I just find this a really really stupid way for SE to make their game.

Hi, you must be new to FFXI.
Would you like to buy a map of the Dragon's Aery for 3000 gil?

Ninjaeditted for clarification.

[½pint]

A load of bollocks from somebody who doesn't understand how to manipulate statistics

Joe, you're a fucking idiot. You're doing it the wrong way. This is the kind of stupid mistake you expect from kids in school doing percentages. I simply say that if you are too stupid to understand the benefits of stacking haste, then you should stick to your melee SMN in exp PT and fuck off back to zam.


What you have proven, Joe, is that SLOW on equip (ie. Hecatomb) has diminishing returns. Using the standard example of base delay 100.
Let's say you are wearing 10% slow in equipment State A. Your base delay is now 110. Let's say you put another 10% in slow on. You are now slow+20% and so your base delay is 120.State B
In comparison to your original, unslowed state, you are slow+20%. However, compared with State A, where your new base delay is 110, and your additional slowed delay is 120, the 10% slow actually only contributes 10/110 = 9% slow.


In comparison, let's look at haste.
State A: No haste gear, Delay 100
State B: 25% haste gear, Delay 75
State C: 50% haste gear, Delay 50

The difference in weapon delay between attacks from state A to state B is 75/100 = 75%
The difference in weapon delay between attacks from state B to state C is 50/75 = 66%

So the progression from state B to C, even though it only adds 25% in haste, gives an actual benefit of 33% haste when compared with the new base delay.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

A load of bollocks from somebody who doesn't understand how to manipulate statistics

Joe, you're a fucking idiot. You're doing it the wrong way. This is the kind of stupid mistake you expect from kids in school doing percentages. I simply say that if you are too stupid to understand the benefits of stacking haste, then you should stick to your melee SMN in exp PT and fuck off back to zam.

Arent you an angry bitch. No, this was all based on a decision SE made when programming this game.

And damn, they sure as hell did it the retarded way. I stand corrected.

[½pint]

Arent you an angry bitch. No, this was all based on a decision SE made when programming this game.

And damn, they sure as hell did it the retarded way. I stand corrected.

They didn't do it the retarded way at all. Your way is retarded. If somebody was wearing two pieces of equipment, one of them with Haste+5% and one of them with Haste+30%, there would be two possible resultant attack speeds different to one another. And you say you're right. God damn it kid, I'm on a scholarship studying maths at Oxford University, so if I say you're wrong you're god damn wrong.

[Jeryhn]

God damn it kid, I'm on a scholarship studying maths at Oxford University, so if I say you're wrong you're god damn wrong.

I claim first dibs on "afk banging hot chicks" replies.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Arent you an angry bitch. No, this was all based on a decision SE made when programming this game.

And damn, they sure as hell did it the retarded way. I stand corrected.

They didn't do it the retarded way at all. Your way is retarded. If somebody was wearing two pieces of equipment, one of them with Haste+5% and one of them with Haste+30%, there would be two possible resultant attack speeds different to one another. And you say you're right. God damn it kid, I'm on a scholarship studying maths at Oxford University, so if I say you're wrong you're god damn wrong.

So in oxford they apparently teach 100+30+5 is different from 100+5+30? They really went downhill.

[½pint]

Arent you an angry bitch. No, this was all based on a decision SE made when programming this game.

And damn, they sure as hell did it the retarded way. I stand corrected.

They didn't do it the retarded way at all. Your way is retarded. If somebody was wearing two pieces of equipment, one of them with Haste+5% and one of them with Haste+30%, there would be two possible resultant attack speeds different to one another. And you say you're right. God damn it kid, I'm on a scholarship studying maths at Oxford University, so if I say you're wrong you're god damn wrong.

So in oxford they apparently teach 100+30+5 is different from 100+5+30? They really went downhill.

30% of 105 is different to 5% of 130, try again.

[Jeryhn]

So in oxford they apparently teach 100+30+5 is different from 100+5+30? They really went downhill.

Wow, you're fucking retarded.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

[quote=½pint]

Arent you an angry bitch. No, this was all based on a decision SE made when programming this game.

And damn, they sure as hell did it the retarded way. I stand corrected.

They didn't do it the retarded way at all. Your way is retarded. If somebody was wearing two pieces of equipment, one of them with Haste+5% and one of them with Haste+30%, there would be two possible resultant attack speeds different to one another. And you say you're right. God damn it kid, I'm on a scholarship studying maths at Oxford University, so if I say you're wrong you're god damn wrong.

So in oxford they apparently teach 100+30+5 is different from 100+5+30? They really went downhill.

30% of 105 is different to 5% of 130, try again.[/quote:fee23]

Now when did I even say that. Either oxford is slacking on math or english, because you sure as hell dont understand one of them.

[Stellar]

Using the equation that you originally stated, that is how it would work..