Auto Refresh vs Conserve MP

[Ryushii]

wow, this really went off in a new direction lol. interesting stuff about haste though lol, i think i get it

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

No, I was talking about total haste. I wasn't saying it was a recursive function, it was just what equation you use once you add haste together. The difference was perspective. +100% haste can mean +100% faster right? If you have a car traveling at 60 mph and you make it run +100% faster you end up with 120 mph not an infinite mph. Its all perspective.

[Genosync]

Before I post this card, has this idiot kid that made this topic gotten less idiotic and stopped saying that people who have played this game for two and a half years are wrong about something that's common sense?

[Garret]

I took up through Calc 3 back in the day & probably can't even remember how to do a simple differential by now, but even I can understand what 1/2 pint is getting at.

You can't compare your % debate to basic addition when that's not how it works.

[Ryushii]

No, if i remember rightly, there was definately mathematical proof that Auto refresh beats out conserve mp the majority of the time.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I took up through Calc 3 back in the day & probably can't even remember how to do a simple differential by now, but even I can understand what 1/2 pint is getting at.

You can't compare your % debate to basic addition when that's not how it works.

I know what he's getting at. He just failed to understand what I was saying.

[aurik]

No, I was talking about total haste. I wasn't saying it was a recursive function, it was just what equation you use once you add haste together. The difference was perspective. +100% haste can mean +100% faster right? If you have a car traveling at 60 mph and you make it run +100% faster you end up with 120 mph not an infinite mph. Its all perspective.

Unfortunately (or fortunately ) haste in FFXI acts on your delay, instead of increasing the rate which you exhaust that delay. So in your analogy, haste is like shortening the length of a mile rather than increasing the speed of the car.

[½pint]

I took up through Calc 3 back in the day & probably can't even remember how to do a simple differential by now, but even I can understand what 1/2 pint is getting at.

You can't compare your % debate to basic addition when that's not how it works.

I know what he's getting at. He just failed to understand what I was saying.

I understood what you were saying. It was just wrong.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

No, I was talking about total haste. I wasn't saying it was a recursive function, it was just what equation you use once you add haste together. The difference was perspective. +100% haste can mean +100% faster right? If you have a car traveling at 60 mph and you make it run +100% faster you end up with 120 mph not an infinite mph. Its all perspective.

Unfortunately (or fortunately ) haste in FFXI acts on your delay, instead of increasing the rate which you exhaust that delay. So in your analogy, haste is like shortening the length of a mile rather than increasing the speed of the car.

We established that lol. Now its just 1/2pint not reading what I actually wrote and assuming I said something I didnt. I think its more logical for haste to increase speed instead directly of reduce delay directly, SE chose otherwise.

[aurik]

No, if i remember rightly, there was definately mathematical proof that Auto refresh beats out conserve mp the majority of the time.

And there was also debate that ended up concluding that autorefresh vs conserve MP should be only one factor of many when considering subjobs.

[Ryushii]

hmm yeah that too, but i don't feel like getting into that endless debate. Conserve MP vs Auto refresh is an important issue though, because if you have no use for either the BLM abilities nor the SMN abilities, it would be bad to make a decision and say 'i get more mp back from conserve mp' and sub BLM.

[½pint]

FINE I will put it in layman's terms for you.

Your base delay gives you 1 attack per second. Over the course of 10 seconds, this gives you 10 attacks.
With 25% haste, you have 1 attack per 0.75 seconds, so over the course of 10 seconds you get 13.333 attacks. This is actually a 33% increase in the number of attacks.
With 50% haste, you have 1 attack per 0.5 seconds, so over the course of 10 seconds you get 20 attacks. This is a 100% increase in the number of attacks.
With 25% haste you got 13.333 attacks. With 50% haste you got 20 attacks. Here, the additional 25% haste to bring the total up to 50% has given you a 50% increase in the number of attacks. Whereas the original 25% haste which gave you a total of 25% haste only had a 33% increase.

CAN YOU UNDERSTAND ME?

[aurik]

hmm yeah that too, but i don't feel like getting into that endless debate. Conserve MP vs Auto refresh is an important issue though, because if you have no use for either the BLM abilities nor the SMN abilities, it would be bad to make a decision and say 'i get more mp back from conserve mp' and sub BLM.

It's not really that important of an issue. It's less than 10mp/min difference, really.

[Ryushii]

well yeah, but that can add up. the big problem with this issue is people overestimating conserve mp and thinking it gives loads more mp a minute than auto refresh.

[Awoir]

hmm yeah that too, but i don't feel like getting into that endless debate. Conserve MP vs Auto refresh is an important issue though, because if you have no use for either the BLM abilities nor the SMN abilities, it would be bad to make a decision and say 'i get more mp back from conserve mp' and sub BLM.

Or you could say "How am I getting home?" and fucking sub BLM like every other RDM.

[Ryushii]

well let me think of the various ways for a person without blm sub to get home...you could use several different rings...maybe use your usually useless CP and buy a scroll of warp...hmm or theres the lvl 36 item SE released...what's it called again?

[Jeryhn]

well yeah, but that can add up. the big problem with this issue is people overestimating conserve mp and thinking it gives loads more mp a minute than auto refresh.

IT DEPENDS UPON THE RATE AT WHICH YOU CAST.

The more often you cast, the more often Conserve MP is likely to flag, which when it does flag, has a pretty impressive return of MP depending on the spell you just cast. You don't have to cast a certain amount of MP to make Conserve MP match Auto Refresh or vice versa. It is a gamble, meaning if luck is on your side, Conserve MP will blow Auto Refresh out of the fucking water, or you'll get unlucky and you would have regenerated more MP using Auto Refresh.

For fuck's sakes.

[Gnu]

The more often you cast, the more often Conserve MP is likely to flag,

how did you come to this conclusion?

[aurik]

well yeah, but that can add up. the big problem with this issue is people overestimating conserve mp and thinking it gives loads more mp a minute than auto refresh.

If you are sorely in need of that extra cure1 every minute, you need better MP management skills. 10MP is the worst case differential. I think most of the time it will be closer to even, or a delta of 1-2 mp. A good rdm should be able to maximize usage of 900mp (base) + 600mp (refresh) + 600mp (ballads) + 200mp (refresh item #1) + 100mp (4 tics resting) every convert cycle. That's pretty damn close to the magic number of 2700mp which is required to statistically beat out auto-refresh, and doesn't take into account aspirable targets, the guaranteed win of 20~mp with ES+drain on convert, double or triple-refresh effect from sanction and duelists chapeau, and the fact that the rdm will probably rest more than 4 ticks every 10 minutes.

[½pint]

As for auto refresh / conserve MP.
I'm taking the base rate for conserve MP to be 5%, since most rates for most traits are at 5% base. And if I remember correctly, conserve MP cuts MP cost in half?

Let's say your RDM has 1000 MP. Convert has a 10 minute recast, so basically the RDM has full MP at the start of 10 minutes and no MP at the end. I am also assuming the RDM does not rest for MP or have any extra MP given to it from items / abilities.

For the first test, there is no BRD in the PT and you do not have sanction refresh or a vermillion cloak or dalmatica, hat etc.

You have 1000 base MP to spend. You also have +3mp/tick for 10 minutes (60 MP/ minute) so +600MP from refresh.

So in 10 minutes you have 1600 MP to expend.
This is for the 'average' case. Sometimes convserve MP will kick in on big-MP spells and save you a lot. Sometimes it will kick in on Poisona and save you nothing.
5% of the time, your MP cost is cut into two.
So 5% of your MP (80 MP) is 'returned' to you, so to speak. Ie. You get 40 MP back. So at the end of 10 minutes, you will have saved 40 MP on average. Of course, if you then use this 40 MP, Convserve MP might kick in, and, on average, will save you 2 MP. Recursively on average you will save 42.105... MP

Auto-refresh for 10 minutes gives you 200 MP (20 MP/min for 10 mins)


HOWEVER

The usefulness of Conserve MP increases as your MP pool increases. For example,
Base MP 1000, Refresh (+3/tick; 600 overall), Ballads (+3/tick; 600 overall), Sanction refresh, Dalmatica & RDM AF hat (+3/tick; 600 overall) will give you 2800 MP to spend in your 10 minutes. At a base rate of 5%, You will be returned an average of 140 MP over the ten minutes, then 7 of this, etc. to give an average of 147 MP returned. Still not quite as good as Auto-refresh, however you can look at this depending on how much the job trait stacks. If Magnetic Earring gives you +5%, in this case at least, you would get 294 MP returned, which is a boost on that of auto-refresh.

The bottom line is this: The more MP you spend over the course of ten minutes (eg. If you rest to regain MP, use MP returning items, get devotion'ed, use a haxed regain feather) the better the returns of conserve MP will be. And of course, if you teleport your party then spend 15 minutes running to, say, sky, you won't cast a thing during that 15 minutes and so convserve MP will do nothing; auto-refresh is a constant 1mp/tick no matter what you do.