Auto Refresh vs Conserve MP

[Jeryhn]

The more often you cast, the more often Conserve MP is likely to flag,

how did you come to this conclusion?

More individual casts = More chances at getting Conserve MP to go off.
I'm not saying it will. But it could, or could not.

Its like you completely ignored the fact that I said it's a gamble.

[aurik]

As for auto refresh / conserve MP.
I'm taking the base rate for conserve MP to be 5%, since most rates for most traits are at 5% base. And if I remember correctly, conserve MP cuts MP cost in half?

Let's say your RDM has 1000 MP. Convert has a 10 minute recast, so basically the RDM has full MP at the start of 10 minutes and no MP at the end. I am also assuming the RDM does not rest for MP or have any extra MP given to it from items / abilities.

For the first test, there is no BRD in the PT and you do not have sanction refresh or a vermillion cloak or dalmatica, hat etc.

You have 1000 base MP to spend. You also have +3mp/tick for 10 minutes (60 MP/ minute) so +600MP from refresh.

So in 10 minutes you have 1600 MP to expend.
This is for the 'average' case. Sometimes convserve MP will kick in on big-MP spells and save you a lot. Sometimes it will kick in on Poisona and save you nothing.
5% of the time, your MP cost is cut into two.
So 5% of your MP (80 MP) is 'returned' to you, so to speak. Ie. You get 40 MP back. So at the end of 10 minutes, you will have saved 40 MP on average. Of course, if you then use this 40 MP, Convserve MP might kick in, and, on average, will save you 2 MP. Recursively on average you will save 42.105... MP

Auto-refresh for 10 minutes gives you 200 MP (20 MP/min for 10 mins)


HOWEVER

The usefulness of Conserve MP increases as your MP pool increases. For example,
Base MP 1000, Refresh (+3/tick; 600 overall), Ballads (+3/tick; 600 overall), Sanction refresh, Dalmatica & RDM AF hat (+3/tick; 600 overall) will give you 2800 MP to spend in your 10 minutes. At a base rate of 5%, You will be returned an average of 140 MP over the ten minutes, then 7 of this, etc. to give an average of 147 MP returned. Still not quite as good as Auto-refresh, however you can look at this depending on how much the job trait stacks. If Magnetic Earring gives you +5%, in this case at least, you would get 294 MP returned, which is a boost on that of auto-refresh.

The bottom line is this: The more MP you spend over the course of ten minutes (eg. If you rest to regain MP, use MP returning items, get devotion'ed, use a haxed regain feather) the better the returns of conserve MP will be. And of course, if you teleport your party then spend 15 minutes running to, say, sky, you won't cast a thing during that 15 minutes and so convserve MP will do nothing; auto-refresh is a constant 1mp/tick no matter what you do.

Conserve MP doesn't work like that, and has been shown to be about a 7.5% decrease in overall mp consumption, I think?

[Septimus]

Conserve MP works by reducing MP expended by 8 values: 1/16, 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, 7/16, 1/2. It is like there are two rolls, one roll determines if Conserve MP goes off (I think 1 in 10 chance or something like that); the other roll determines how much MP is saved.

[othellojr]

Conserve MP is random amounts of MP, I have had spells cost 85%(15% reduction), 75%, 50% at random times, sometimes I have seen my spells only cost me 15% mp (War, normally 100mp, have seen my mp bar only reduced by 15 mp instead of a 100)...its randomness in activation and the amount saved could well be what Aurik posted, I just know what I have seen, and yeah, fuck /smn.

[Ryushii]

lol dude, just because it varies doesnt mean it can't be measured. when you talk about a topic like this you use averages. you can't just say 'oh it varies so you never know.' theres a proven percent of mp conserve mp gives back. we can use that percent to then determine which is better over time, as we did

[rydiu]

If I'm not Converting into the red every ten minutes like clockwork, I

or every 8 minutes, 20 seconds if you have it fully meritted like you should..

[Jeryhn]

If I'm not Converting into the red every ten minutes like clockwork, I

or every 8 minutes, 20 seconds if you have it fully meritted like you should..

I'm going to make a political statement:

Fuck Convert merits.

Discuss.

[rydiu]

You cant really stack on +conserve MP on a RDM, however on a BLM you can add lots more MP via items (which is why blms will "Blindly swear by it").

We swear by it for a reason!!!

Casting a thundaga 3 and watching your total MP go from 1000 to 910 is pretty cool when it happens...

[nivlakian]

Conserve MP is random amounts of MP, I have had spells cost 85%(15% reduction), 75%, 50% at random times, sometimes I have seen my spells only cost me 15% mp (War, normally 100mp, have seen my mp bar only reduced by 15 mp instead of a 100)...its randomness in activation and the amount saved could well be what Aurik posted, I just know what I have seen, and yeah, fuck /smn.

I think your conserve mp is broken.

[aurik]

If I'm not Converting into the red every ten minutes like clockwork, I

or every 8 minutes, 20 seconds if you have it fully meritted like you should..

I'm going to make a political statement:

Fuck Convert merits.

Discuss.

Full convert merits works out to about a 20mp/minute gain

Also, fuck Ryushii who thinks that we've mathematically proven anything one way or another that doesn't depend highly on circumstances. If you think this is a settled issue, you're deluded, and snippy little comments like the last few just show how deluded you are.

I'll give you this: autorefresh is MUCH better when standing at the auction house. Other than that, it depends on the specifics of your situation.

[Byrd]

If I'm not Converting into the red every ten minutes like clockwork, I

or every 8 minutes, 20 seconds if you have it fully meritted like you should..

I'm going to make a political statement:

Fuck Convert merits.

Discuss.

If you're in an XP/burn party or whatever situation where you're regularly using convert every 10 minutes, fully meriting convert effectively increases your MP pool significantly. (Refresh is a constant, so irrelevant to these figures).

1000 MP convert every 10 minutes: 6000 MP/hour
1000 MP convert every 8:20 min: 7200 MP/hour

Works out to an extra 20 MP/minute. Is that more important than Wind or Ice Accuracy? As with virtually every situation in this game and particularly those involving RDM, it's situationally dependent.

EDIT: Gah! Beaten.

[rydiu]

Is that more important than Wind or Ice Accuracy? As with virtually every situation in this game and particularly those involving RDM, it's situationally dependent.

EDIT: Gah! Beaten.

Ice accuracy yes, wind accuracy semi-useless....

Gravity builds resistance, silence not THAT useful.. bind - exxxtremely useful.

Its not about mp/hr.. its about having convert ready when you need it. Not all of us merit solely for the sake of merit parties....

[MisterBob]

lolSendantes

I have to agree with this statement. Allow me to add:
lolnin/drg lolnin/thf lolnotsubbingwaronnininmostsituations and lolnin/drkbutnotdoingitright

[Kyreth]

If I'm not Converting into the red every ten minutes like clockwork, I

or every 8 minutes, 20 seconds if you have it fully meritted like you should..

At 69 RDM, it's every 10 minutes. Which is me. You can guess from my habits of trying to burn every MP I can generate that's getting merited ASAP.

Some of us are just starting into the endgame, ya know.

[Ryushii]

My opinion: acc merits (gods etc)
And yes, this conversation does seem one sided. One side is giving exact figures, the other is saying "oh, i saved 40 mp on a cure4 once! conserve mp must be better!" Look at the post I made about the maximum mp a RDM can output. If your going to eb active in a fight for more than one convert cycle, then there's really no way for conserve mp to catch up. otherwise, yes, it is situational. oh and btw, when someone gives me snippity little comments, i have a tendency to reply the same way back to them

[MisterBob]

My opinion: acc merits (gods etc)
And yes, this conversation does seem one sided. One side is giving exact figures, the other is saying "oh, i saved 40 mp on a cure4 once! conserve mp must be better!" Look at the post I made about the maximum mp a RDM can output. If your going to eb active in a fight for more than one convert cycle, then there's really no way for conserve mp to catch up. otherwise, yes, it is situational. oh and btw, when someone gives me snippity little comments, i have a tendency to reply the same way back to them

lolgods
When discussing merits, discuss something that actually requires them please

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Why do people even bring up gods when talking about items. You can kill the 1st tier gods with 6-12 people and kirin with 18-24 without breaking a sweat using relatively common gear.

[MisterBob]

Why do people even bring up gods when talking about items. You can kill the 1st tier gods with 6-12 people and kirin with 18-24 without breaking a sweat using relatively common gear.

Yep. Sky is not the hard part of endgame. The only thing "hard" about it is claiming Ulli lol.
If you're in a Sky LS onry or whatever, fine, but don't go into discussions about merits and items on gods, because you could have your mages go with HQ staves and no other items and kill them rediculously easy. I mean, it's gotten to the point where you can just stand there and take Suzaku's 2hr if you put up Barfira :P

[Ryushii]

gravity and other debuffs might not be important or difficult to land on xp mobs, but in big end game fights where a rdm is needed to debuff (specifically gravity in many of the fights in my ls) its not going to help if you can restore you mp 2 minutes faster.

[MisterBob]

gravity and other debuffs might not be important or difficult to land on xp mobs, but in big end game fights where a rdm is needed to debuff (specifically gravity in many of the fights in my ls) its not going to help if you can restore you mp 2 minutes faster.

Yeah, and you dont need merits or amazing gear to stick gravity on gods. Kirin is weak to Wind, for christ's sake. RDM is used to debuff in every fight, what do you think most LSs use them for, melee damage? Gods != difficult fights. If you have MP or accuracy problems as a RDM on gods, buy some damn HQ staves, or quit.