point systems

[aurik]

As I said, being a giant douchebag is one of the key ingredients. Ichy doesn't qualify.

[layoneil]

As I said, being a giant douchebag is one of the key ingredients. Ichy doesn't qualify.

he was a fairly normal elitist (like 90% of posters with over 1000 posts) when he first started posting here until everyone thought it was a good idea to rip on him.

I appologize for not being able to sense this (what with this being the internet and all), but are you joking?

PLD or NIN doesn't make much of a difference imo. if your best tank/s is a NIN than it goes to the NIN (see Rukenshin), if it's a PLD than it goes to the PLD.

with the rate at which D. Rings drop, it's not even a stretch to say people who want to lot should be required to level both.

[DrObvious]

Point systems suck because somebody, somewhere, is doing bookkeeping.

It's not a matter of it being hard, or being lazy. If I was leading a linkshell, I wouldn't want to have to spend even 10 seconds after an event to write down points and such nonsense.

No Bookkeeping > Bookkeeping.

Design a set of lotting rules that everyone agrees with, and never worry about it again. If people whine about the rules, or drama comes up, then the rules end up changing and people are happy again.

How is not wanting to do bookkeeping not a symptom of laziness? In the amount of time it takes people to gather together you can easily keep attendance.

How is setting up a point system any more or less prone to be free of opinion and bias? Why are some events worth more points than others? Do you get more points for winning a king pull on the first window or losing it on the seventh? Do people get more points for coming on a job that they hate for the good of the linkshell?

You opinion of what different events are worth may not be shared by other people. You may consider a point system to be more objective, but in the end, that is merely your opinion.

At least a points system has everything in the open so people can discuss issues before problems occur, not after when it's already too late, and are more aware of the situation. Neither system is perfect, but it stands that a points system is harder to abuse and bad leaders are less likely to distribute loot unfairly. As someone else stated, a divine system often comes down to mental estimation of points anyway.

[Aodh]

As someone else stated, a divine system often comes down to mental estimation of points anyway.

Point systems, events have a value which usually changes by the type of event, but the value is public and applies to everyone universally. The total of the contributions are tracked to show the reletive contribution to other members. This is used to determine who gets which items.

With Divine Choice systems, events have a subjective/reletive value which is determined retrospectivly when items drop. Different people may have different perceived contributions based on intangables (like being on a job they hate, or being AFK, or dual boxing) which is not public and varies from person to person. The total contribution is discussed and weighted on possible value added. The concensus formed (by as few as 1) by the decision makers/leaders determine who gets which items.

My opinions: Divine Choice systems maximize what is best for the LS in determining who gets what. But this doesn't take into accout what individuals perceive as important or decide how they would like their contribution rewarded. Imagine the CoP quest for the rings, how you you feel if the game decided that since you have PLD leveled that you get the Sattva Ring instead of the Raja's Ring? I'm not playing the game for other people, I'm playing it for myself. Part of what I enjoy is being in a group and building relationships with my fellow players, but they shouldn't be deciding for me what's important to me.

[Alisha]

did feel like reading all the pages cause i'm tired =/ anyways...

my ls uses a point system but it works a little different.

copy and paste time...

What do points mean?


1. Each point is a share of the gil in the linkshell bank. At the end of each session everyone with points will be cashed out.

2. A members position to lot is determined by his/hers ~LS point total~ as well as job and contributions to the family. rockage linkshell does not let people cast lots on items solely on point totals, but during a "family discussion", point totals may be a factor if the two members deciding the lotting situation are both "elegible" to lot, but are seperated by 'many' points. Basically point totals are a good measurement of "recent" linkshell participation, meaning in the past 3-4 months, but should NOT be the only factor in lotting items.
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Session?

Each session of rockage covers about 3-4months of real life time. During this time, Points are earned and recorded for each current member.
Check your own point total (if you are a rockage member) in the thread ~Point totals for rockage~
At the end of a session, all points will be reset to ~0~ and the rockagebank will be evenly distributed to each member based on points.
Ex: Session ends and rockagebank has 100million gil
200 points were earned by all members cumulatively
100/200 = .5 = Each point is "worth" 500k
BobbyBLM earns 10 points, he will recieve 5million gil.

~Note~ If you leave rockage before the session ends, the points you have earned will be forfeit and you will not recieve a cut of the rockagebank.

[Aodh]

What you've outlined is a point/bank system. Where that system gets sketchy is on two main issues. (This is going into the discussion as to "what's the advantages/disadvantages")

First issue, is determining what is sold and what isn't. Examples include: Shining Cloth, Ore from Jormungand, Cashmire from Vrtra, Kirin's Osode, Herald's Gaiters, AV/JOL drops, etc. There are some things that are cut and dry, there are others which are borderline yes/no, and as a result become an issue at some time.

Second, is what if the bank is stolen? This happened to my previous LS which was running a bank system prior to me joining. It's really not pretty what happens from there.

Some of the advantages include that it's an easy system to close down (Split bank based on points) and it's also very easy if you need money for something, you don't have to wait on kills or farm, just redeam points.

[Pyrena]

We have a point/bank system that I think works out nicely. It's pretty much been the same since the LS was started. You only accumulate points from sky farming. With those points, you can buy anything you want. We have a set amount of points for certain things, like Shining Cloth, D.log, Siren's Hair, things that drop from sky. Things like HQ staves and elemental rings are on the list too, because they're nice to have. If you want something that's not on the list, it's a certain amount of gil per 10 points (it changes sometimes because of fluctuating prices on the AH). You can also buy anything we have on the bank for 25% off the AH price. Everything else, including Osode, is the divine system. I think we make damn good decisions too. But yeah, anything you get with points is yours, if you want to sell it, we ask that you sell it back to the bank and buy what you had your eye on for the points we give you for it. Or if you bought it with gil with the discount, we'll pay you the discounted price for the item. If you leave the LS, we'll ask for things back like Osode, but when we give them to someone it's because they deserved it, worked for it. It's theirs, even though it would be respectful to give it back to the LS that got it for you. We all know not everyone is like that though.

Edit: NQ king stuff we sell and split, giving 10% to the bank. HQ money is kept in the bank.

[Khalil]

I was being quite serious, Bluedemon. I guess it all depends on your LS and what types of tanks they use, but in my LS, the PLDs and NINs both have priority for the D.Ring then to anyone else, provided you have the points.

A point system removes the subjective judgment. It also removes the event where a two-week member gets E.Body over a member who has contributing over the course of the LS. I would so hate to be in a Divine Choice LS, I would literally have to suck the Leaders' cock or clits in order to get items. A point system removes the power from the Leaders and has it out in the open. Just like Aodh said, I'd raher discuss who will get what items before, than when it's too late.

[layoneil]

It also removes the event where a two-week member gets E.Body over a member who has contributing over the course of the LS.

and than 6 months later the two-week member most dedicated WAR in your LS still doesn't have an E.Body, the BST that got it goes to every event on SAM and also has a lolSash.

it's naive to think both doesn't have major flaws or to think the other system can't work properly.

[Bluedemon]

Fascinating, being a NIN myself, I wouldn't mind one bit having a Dring, I know how useful it can be, however, if a PLD and NIN both tanked equally as much or contributed the same to the LS, then I would never expect to be treated as an equal to that Paladin on a Dring drop. Reason being is simply because a Paladin does get hit more often and the ring to them isn't as situational as it would be to a Ninja.

As a Ninja, I would only ever use a Dring when I'm blood tanking, and even then I'm usually subbing DRK with haste and 2x March - meaning its near impossible to catch me with shadows down to see the mob actually land physical damage on me. THe only damage I take is from AOEs. PLD however takes both physical damage and AOE damage.

The concept of who ever tanks more is definately a viable arguement though and one I wouldn't by any means discredit. This is where I believe our priority system flourishes. I don't by any means rule out NIN with a Dring, I simply believe that comparing a PLD and NIN of equal worth, this particular item would be put to more use by a PLD. That said, top tier PLD gets more priority than a top tier NIN, but a top tier NIN still gets more priority than a middle or low tier PLD.

Fortunately, the rest of my LS sides with me on this, and thus it says as such. I keep an open door policy on everything and members always are free to speak up if they don't agree on how something is done which i think is the most important policy to put in effect to make any LS work regardless of what kind of system you use. There has never been any question in the LS that PLD get a slight priority over NIN, but not a complete monopoly on the drop, and this system that I use accounts for just that.

[Aodh]

It also removes the event where a two-week member gets E.Body over a member who has contributing over the course of the LS.

and than 6 months later the two-week member most dedicated WAR in your LS still doesn't have an E.Body, the BST that got it goes to every event on SAM and also has a lolSash.

it's naive to think both doesn't have major flaws or to think the other system can't work properly.

Message to BST/SAM: If you really wanted that E. Body, you should have spent the last 24 weeks leveling WAR instead of helping the LS.

[layoneil]

Message to BST/SAM: If you really wanted that E. Body, you should have spent the last 24 weeks leveling WAR instead of helping the LS.

you're allowed to skip LS events to XP?

[Khamsin]

Message to BST/SAM: If you really wanted that E. Body, you should have spent the last 24 weeks leveling WAR instead of helping the LS.

you're allowed to skip LS events to XP?

And if you do, you'll have a priority job but be 24 weeks behind in points, and likely never get the e.body then.

[Aodh]

Message to BST/SAM: If you really wanted that E. Body, you should have spent the last 24 weeks leveling WAR instead of helping the LS.

you're allowed to skip LS events to XP?

Our LS gives members that freedom, because our point system rewards those who do participate so that people want to, not are forced too. (It is a game after all is said and done).

But in terms of my comment, someone who spent the last 26 weeks (6 months) contributing to the LS should have spent that time leveling WAR if the thing they really wanted was an E. Body. Because the only thing that made the difference in your example is the WAR had the job leveled and only participated for two weeks, where the BST participated for 26 weeks. If he spent his time leveling WAR, then he only would have to participate for 2 weeks as well to get the E. Body.

[Pyrena]

I was being quite serious, Bluedemon. I guess it all depends on your LS and what types of tanks they use, but in my LS, the PLDs and NINs both have priority for the D.Ring then to anyone else, provided you have the points.

A point system removes the subjective judgment. It also removes the event where a two-week member gets E.Body over a member who has contributing over the course of the LS. I would so hate to be in a Divine Choice LS, I would literally have to suck the Leaders' cock or clits in order to get items. A point system removes the power from the Leaders and has it out in the open. Just like Aodh said, I'd raher discuss who will get what items before, than when it's too late.

The only way to suck our cocks/clits is to come to events as much as possible, and contribute.

[Excalin Garisk]

I'd like to see how a point system based on Tiers would work. The system being designed to show hey you have earned your dues your allowed to lot the item as well if it drops. using dynamis as an example. set x as 10, 20, whatever with each raid being 1 point. when you hit x points you can lot your first AF piece on whatever job you picked along with everyone else that has the points and job picked.

x points - get to lot rdm feet if they drop
2x points - rdm 72 piece
3x points - 73
4x - 74
5x - 75

This type of deal would appeal to me cause I deploy atleast every 20 months with my unit for a few months. Traditional system would just own anyone that had to miss for a few months to an otherwise very active player. For a normal HNM LS you could have a list by each job. if an item is more useful to one job then another then put it lower to unlock then another. say crimson panties could be second unlocked point total for a pld but a drk would have to wait till his tenth tier to be able to lot them too.

[NynJa]

Message to BST/SAM: If you really wanted that E. Body, you should have spent the last 24 weeks leveling WAR instead of helping the LS.

you're allowed to skip LS events to XP?

Thats the nature of point based systems:
It doesnt turn this hobby into a 2nd job.

[Aodh]

And if you do, you'll have a priority job but be 24 weeks behind in points, and likely never get the e.body then.

Layoneil was using sarcasm to say the BST would get the drops over a WAR when the WAR would have gotten it in a divine choice system.

[Norelco]

Not making shit mandatory is the way to go, and that's why I like point systems. My last LS we'd go crazy on events for a month and then everyone would be burnt out for 2 weeks...by doing points you basically earn your keep each event, and if you are feeling burnt you can choose not to attend at the expense of getting raid points. It works for me.

When the LS I'm in formed(Bluedemon's shell: Remedy), I took off over a month to hardcore level COR and it was the best thing ever, because now I'm hungry to participate again and rack up points and build up my reputation as a reliable member.

If I feel I'm getting burnt out or need a break, instead of taking off another month or more, I'll just skip an event here or there. And I'm okay with not getting points because of that, because it was my choice, and not because I was forced.

[layoneil]

when the WAR would have gotten it in a divine choice system.

i never said or implied that part. i'm just saying points still has its flaws.

Thats the nature of point based systems:
It doesnt turn this hobby into a 2nd job.

and any system without points make it so? it's the same thing either way, if you're in an LS with a points system and you expect to get the best of the best stuff, you're still going to have to go to nearly every event like it was a job to have those points.