point systems

[inafume]

Message to BST/SAM: If you really wanted that E. Body, you should have spent the last 24 weeks leveling WAR instead of helping the LS.

you're allowed to skip LS events to XP?

Thats the nature of point based systems:
It doesnt turn this hobby into a 2nd job.

You guys are approaching from different angles. One from an LS that realistically needs everyone online to succeed, and one that doesn't. When you have 40+ members on shell, you can afford to not show up to everything and the LS still has a realistic chance of pull/claim/kill/etc.

[Pyrena]

Unless you have a divine system that considers the job, but doesn't rule by it. A 2 week WAR would not have gotten it over a 6 month BST. It would be more useful for the WAR, but the BST deserves it more.

[Norelco]

You guys are approaching from different angles. One from an LS that realistically needs everyone online to succeed, and one that doesn't. When you have 40+ members on shell, you can afford to not show up to everything and the LS still has a realistic chance of pull/claim/kill/etc.

That's also a very good point.

[Aodh]

when the WAR would have gotten it in a divine choice system.

i never said or implied that part. i'm just saying points still has its flaws.

and than 6 months later the two-week member most dedicated WAR in your LS still doesn't have an E.Body, the BST that got it goes to every event on SAM and also has a lolSash.

While you're not saying the WAR got it, you're implying that the WAR would either make better use of it or deserved to get it more than the BST. I'm not saying points are perfect either, just that the message that's carried across when someone who historically has contributed less is rewarded greater than the person who has contributed more, just because that person didn't have 'the best job for that piece of gear'.

[Aelfinn]

I'd say bst should have priority lot on Riddil and E.Body, but then again im on a mission to make my e-peen unable to be held back by my {Monster Trousers}

[rydiu]

Unless you have a divine system that considers the job, but doesn't rule by it. A 2 week WAR would not have gotten it over a 6 month BST. It would be more useful for the WAR, but the BST deserves it more.

BST only deserves if he's going to lvl WAR after he gets it.. otherwise its a waste... hell give it to a 6 month white mage if they plan on levelling WAR and you know they're capable

[layoneil]

While you're not saying the WAR got it, you're implying that the WAR would either make better use of it or deserved to get it more than the BST.

make better use of it, yes. deserve it, idk.

i did not say a Divine Choice system would've picked the WAR either.

i'm saying both can have the same issues.

just that the message that's carried across when someone who historically has contributed less is rewarded greater than the person who has contributed more, just because that person didn't have 'the best job for that piece of gear'.

that can happen in a points system too when jobs are weighted. in most point systems, a RDM with 100 points probably wouldn't be able to spend it on a Novio when there's a BLM with 90 points around. so in this care the BLM still is rewarded greater after contributing less.

point systems don't always fix that problem (and it shouldn't).

[Suiram]

In an ideal point system, the end result should mirror that of a completely fair-minded leader distributing items. The whole principle behind job priority (giving an item to a job that better benefits from it over other jobs that can equip it) is the presumption that the item will be used by that person on that job for the future benefit of the LS.

If a BST has in the past contributed enough to the LS to lot over a WAR, then levels WAR for the e. body, there's no reason to assume he wouldn't continue to benefit the LS--on WAR when requested--at the same rate he had been beforehand. In that case you don't get an e. body that goes to a BST, you get one that goes to another dedicated WAR who happens to also be a BST. It doesn't matter if having an E. body for his BST was his original intention.

There's always the chance that a person will quit the LS or stop coming to events altogether when they get their much-desired item, but a point system has no better or worse method of predicting that than a divine-rule system. And if a person stopped coming to events altogether, or refused to come on a job for which they had previously used in priority to lot items, then that would be grounds for removal from most LSs, whether by the leader or leaders of a divine rule system, or a democratic vote among the members of an open, points-based system.

[Khamsin]

"Having the best job for a piece of gear" is especially important when it comes to really rare drops. If something drops that your LS only sees once every couple years, or perhaps, once in the lifetime of your LS, the last thing you want is it to go to someone who doesn't have a job that can put it to the best use, even if they contributed more.

Take the Map scenario. What if Map wasn't a SAM? What if he were a WHM and lotted sash? A RNG and lotted sash? A MNK and lotted sash?

Now, if he had significantly more points, like maybe 50%+ more, than the highest NIN or WAR, the sash could go to him out of principle, more for the sake of not giving such a rare drop to a new member than because its best for WHM/RNG/MNK/SAM. But barring that, its imperative items like that get put to the best use they can, by going to someone with the appropriate job levelled. Especially if the next time one drops, it might not be for years, or ever.

With items that drop every time you camp, its not as important who it goes to since everyone's going to have one relatively quickly.

[Aodh]

Anything (including weighting based on jobs) that "adjusts" actual points is disproportionatly rewarding people for an equal amount of effort. In your example, yes a weighting like that would be unfair to the RDM who earned the 100 points over the BLM who earned 90. I personally haven't been a part of a point system that weights items to jobs so I wouldn't say "Most". This isn't a common practice.

When you say So-and-so got something when Someone-else didn't in the context you outlined with it being a point of ridicule, then you're implying that if Someone-else were to get something over So-and-so, all would be right. Especially if you're not including anyone else in your example (like for example a WAR who's been active for 7 months over the BST's 6). How you have that sentence worded does imply that the BST shouldn't have gotten it until the WAR has because it is satirical to let the BST get it before the WAR.

[Aodh]

In an ideal point system, the end result should mirror that of a completely fair-minded leader distributing items.

Absolutely Correct! Which is how and why both systems are generally accepted, their intent in a pure world is the same and if everyone participating is free of all corruption and deception, they both will function fairly.

If a BST has in the past contributed enough to the LS to lot over a WAR, then levels WAR for the e. body, there's no reason to assume he wouldn't continue to benefit the LS--on WAR when requested--at the same rate he had been beforehand. In that case you don't get an e. body that goes to a BST, you get one that goes to another dedicated WAR who happens to also be a BST. It doesn't matter if having an E. body for his BST was his original intention.

But in the same respect, it shouldn't be a requirement to level a job you hate or have no intention of playing just to get the piece of gear that's best for your original job. If the BST was useful before without WAR leveled, having an E. Body will make him better and more useful. Although the contribution to the LS as a whole may not be the same as if a WAR were to get it, having the BST who has historically given more to the LS better will improve the LS as well.

[Tom Chambers]

Now, if he had significantly more points, like maybe 50%+ more, than the highest NIN or WAR, the sash could go to him out of principle

Well...he did. And the shell didn't care about 'use' because they're all in competing LS' for everything else. Pretty straightforward, really.

[Luke]

So much talk about E.body, it's not even that great >.>. My LS runs on a points system, which allows you to choose 2 items that you hope for from Kings and other NM's. It doesn't weigh jobs on any items except D.ring, which is choosable by Lvl70+ PLD only. ie, I picked M.body even though my PLD is only 37, and Ridill (About 75% of the LS chose ridill as one hope item, lol). Everything that isn't someones hope item is "free" lotted, with the use of points. Points are also used to lot on money items.

Active members (we have 16) are rewarded by being able to choose hope items and get priority on free lotting body abjurations, Gaiters, etc, but have to come to the camps if they are online. Inactive members don't have to come to camps if they're online but they don't get to choose hope items or get to free lot the "good" items.

In my old LS, it was run by "Divine Choice", which worked great in the beginning, when everyone only had 1 job. But after time, you run into conflicts like, one person contributing a lot but is wanting an item for a 4th job while some other person doesn't have it for their first, but doesn't contribute nearly as much. They were really focused on how items affected the LS in the "now", which I thought shouldn't be more important than rewarding people who contributed more. A clear example of a downside to this is at one point the LS had pretty much pimped all our RDM's but wanted to recruit one more, so he got first dibs on a -lot- of items but later left the LS because he didn't get RDM AF2 hat on first drop since he joined.

[FFXIFlux]

But barring that, its imperative items like that get put to the best use they can, by going to someone with the appropriate job levelled.

This idea is true in, and comes from, MMORPGs that have endgames. FFXI doesn't. In other games an expansion comes out and you'll have maybe 30 loot-dropping boss mobs to kill and the last half or so of them are practically impossible to kill without gear upgrades from the first half of the bosses and top gear from the previous expansion. Assigning limited resource based on who can make the best use of it to kill the next tier of boss mobs is important. WTF do you need a ridill or an m.body for in FFXI? To kill lolCerberus so you can get your lolSword so you can lolXP your lolDRK better? Cerberus could be killed by any linkshell that hasn't evened played for 2 years, doesn't have merits, doesn't have gear, but hit the AH quick on the way to get some stun scrolls.

FFXI is like a multi-billion dollar football stadium with a holographic jumbo screen system, the best sound system in the world and used 24/7 by some kid named Herbert to play tiddlywinks.

[layoneil]

"Having the best job for a piece of gear" is especially important when it comes to really rare drops. If something drops that your LS only sees once every couple years, or perhaps, once in the lifetime of your LS, the last thing you want is it to go to someone who doesn't have a job that can put it to the best use, even if they contributed more.

i absolutely disagree with this. partly because of what Flux said and mostly because anyone can level the "best job for a piece of gear" in a more reasonable amount of time than it would take for that rare piece of gear to ever drop again.

I personally haven't been a part of a point system that weights items to jobs so I wouldn't say "Most". This isn't a common practice.

so it costs the same for a BLM or WHM to get a Dalmatica as it would a BRD or RDM? i'm compelled to think most point systems have checks and balances against something like that in some way.

[Ryany]

This idea is true in, and comes from, MMORPGs that have endgames. FFXI doesn't. In other games an expansion comes out and you'll have maybe 30 loot-dropping boss mobs to kill and the last half or so of them are practically impossible to kill without gear upgrades from the first half of the bosses and top gear from the previous expansion. Assigning limited resource based on who can make the best use of it to kill the next tier of boss mobs is important. WTF do you need a ridill or an m.body for in FFXI? To kill lolCerberus so you can get your lolSword so you can lolXP your lolDRK better? Cerberus could be killed by any linkshell that hasn't evened played for 2 years, doesn't have merits, doesn't have gear, but hit the AH quick on the way to get some stun scrolls.

FFXI is like a multi-billion dollar football stadium with a holographic jumbo screen system, the best sound system in the world and used 24/7 by some kid named Herbert to play tiddlywinks.

...talk about hitting the nail on the head.

[Aodh]

Sometimes level restrictions and conditions are added, but like I said in a previous post, anything that changes the values of fixed points hurts the system. So saying Dalmatica is ## points for WHM/BLM and ##-20 for RDM/BRD means that the RDM/BRD doesn't have to contribute as much to get the same reward, which is generally unfair.

How the point systems end up operating is the people who want things spend the points on them, and thus can't spend points on things they don't want. Continuing your example, why would a WHM spend 20 points on A.Body when they could get a Shining Cloth for the same value. And if they chose to spend it on A.Body, the shining cloth would go to someone else.

Our linkshell takes silent bids (sent to two people who don't want drops prior to the event/pop) where people put values on the things they want. For example someone could spend 50 points on Ridill because that's how much it's worth to them, and the next person might only spend 10. Our only stipulation is that they must be within 1 level to equip it.

Since people say "This item is worth this much to me" there isn't a problem with who gets what, the people who want things the most spend more points on it which took them longer to obtain.

Side note: How points are redeamed is half a point system after to how they're obtained. You have to be fair in both for the system to be fair. What you may have been thinking about is a fixed point redemption (i.e. A. Body is 20 points and always 20 points and no more than 20 points). Generally a fixed redemption system lets people who have been with the linkshell the longest get everything, and is obviously unfair. Even bank systems usually have some kind of bidding method for dealing with EX drops.

[Unklemonkey]

This idea is true in, and comes from, MMORPGs that have endgames. FFXI doesn't. In other games an expansion comes out and you'll have maybe 30 loot-dropping boss mobs to kill and the last half or so of them are practically impossible to kill without gear upgrades from the first half of the bosses and top gear from the previous expansion. Assigning limited resource based on who can make the best use of it to kill the next tier of boss mobs is important. WTF do you need a ridill or an m.body for in FFXI? To kill lolCerberus so you can get your lolSword so you can lolXP your lolDRK better? Cerberus could be killed by any linkshell that hasn't evened played for 2 years, doesn't have merits, doesn't have gear, but hit the AH quick on the way to get some stun scrolls.

FFXI is like a multi-billion dollar football stadium with a holographic jumbo screen system, the best sound system in the world and used 24/7 by some kid named Herbert to play tiddlywinks.

...talk about hitting the nail on the head.

Somebody agreeing with flux? ...What the hell is going on here

[Jeryhn]

FFXI is like a multi-billion dollar football stadium with a holographic jumbo screen system, the best sound system in the world and used 24/7 by some kid named Herbert to play tiddlywinks.

And Pokemon is an overglorified Rock, Paper, Scissors.

[Ambir]

so it costs the same for a BLM or WHM to get a Dalmatica as it would a BRD or RDM? i'm compelled to think most point systems have checks and balances against something like that in some way.

Our LS is a points system with minimum points bids and a job priority system.

So for Dalmatica (which has high minimum points) priority is BRD=RDM>BLM>WHM. If a BRD or RDM has the minimum points, the BLM or WHM can't outlot them, but if no BRD or RDM has saved the points, then the BLMs get a shot at it.

It means that the players with the highest contributions out of the jobs that can best use the item have priority...