point systems

[NynJa]

I'll just repeat my last post, since you seem to have overlooked it.

Nobody said that Divine Decision is less susceptible to similar problems. People are just claiming that points are guaranteed to be a "fair" way to do things. Guess what? Point systems are just as abusable, and more abusable than divine decision if the leadership is 'fair'.

Yes, they're both succeptible to the same common flaws. The thing about a points system is that it has a facutal ground to support itself on.

A divine system is like working for a job, and getting paid based on what your boss FEELS you worked. Would you like it if your boss paid you based on what he feels you worked ?? Because thats what a divine system is.

[BRP]

Very poor comparison. Can you explain to me how a point system works in that whole "boss pays you when he feels like it?". I guess you have to miss a bunch of paychecks for a certain paycheck? Sounds so much better.

[aurik]

I'll just repeat my last post, since you seem to have overlooked it.

Nobody said that Divine Decision is less susceptible to similar problems. People are just claiming that points are guaranteed to be a "fair" way to do things. Guess what? Point systems are just as abusable, and more abusable than divine decision if the leadership is 'fair'.

Yes, they're both succeptible to the same common flaws. The thing about a points system is that it has a facutal ground to support itself on.

A divine system is like working for a job, and getting paid based on what your boss FEELS you worked. Would you like it if your boss paid you based on what he feels you worked ?? Because thats what a divine system is.

On the flip side, it's much easier to "game" a points system, because you know exactly what you have to do to "earn" a drop, and can find the absolute minimal way to accomplish that.

Where the systems are the same, they're the same. Where they're different, one man's pros are another man's cons.

[Koyangi]

IN's council systems seems fair, I mean their turnover rate for people quitting the game vs just leaving the ls is basically 10:1, if I'm mistaken plz feel free to correct me, and they dont lose people hardly ever.

[Georgetp]

IN's council systems seems fair, I mean their turnover rate for people quitting the game vs just leaving the ls is basically 10:1, if I'm mistaken plz feel free to correct me, and they dont lose people hardly ever.

Basically what Koyangi said.. we have a divine system and its worked for us since day 1. All of our "council" members are reasonable, we base drops off a multitide of aspects. Persons activity, continued acitivity, a small base veteran principle, and job priority as well. We dicuss all our drops beforehand, debate in our own private section of our forums every possible drop, and reasoning for everything. Then come to a general decision after a good ammount of debate.

Our system has worked well for us, we've only had 1 person "leave" in about a year in a half since I started the LS. By "leave" I mean "DONT FIRE ME I QUIT" type of leave. Two left because of stress, and the final didnt want to play their job anymore, and had no other useful jobs. Everyone has always stayed happy with drops in general, no one has left because of an abj drop or something, just need reasonable people and people who sort of cancel eachother(attitude wise) when discussing things.

With our system we're able to discuss with people privately about any questions reguarding any drops, without giving a bullshit blow the person off answer. Because everyone on the council knows why person A got it over person B.

[Khalil]

I'll just repeat my last post, since you seem to have overlooked it.

Nobody said that Divine Decision is less susceptible to similar problems. People are just claiming that points are guaranteed to be a "fair" way to do things. Guess what? Point systems are just as abusable, and more abusable than divine decision if the leadership is 'fair'.

Yes, they're both succeptible to the same common flaws. The thing about a points system is that it has a facutal ground to support itself on.

A divine system is like working for a job, and getting paid based on what your boss FEELS you worked. Would you like it if your boss paid you based on what he feels you worked ?? Because thats what a divine system is.

On the flip side, it's much easier to "game" a points system, because you know exactly what you have to do to "earn" a drop, and can find the absolute minimal way to accomplish that.

Where the systems are the same, they're the same. Where they're different, one man's pros are another man's cons.

Only way to abuse a point system LS is by giving yourself a fuckton of points without the LS noticing it. That rarely ever happens. All of our members check their points and debates it with the Leaders if they feel they weren't equally rewarded or that the Leaders may have missed teir names during an event. I'm sorry, but a point system has, in theory and pratice, less than a divine choice LS. Then again, there are a lot of divine choice LS who are superb and can function without points.

How can you based someone's efforts in your head? I mean, how many members do you have, 15? For a large LS, there will be more than 40+ people, and keeping track of their attendance and contribution is relatively hard. A point system shows you your contribution on paper and you can debate that with the Leaders anytime they're online or on TS.

About the whole AFK thing, we switch people in and out for most raids, so we're well aware of who's AFK and not. I don't know our policy for that but I'm fairly certain they aren't awarded points if they are AFK.

[Norelco]

The moral of the story is, that you should go with the system you feel most comfortable with.

[Bluedemon]

In my previous Linkshell which was divine choice I found that it was more likely to over look someones contributions very easily. Norelco can attest to this back in our UL days when I was taking attendance despite not having a point system. When everyone discovered Madness had the 2nd highest attendance behind myself, everyone was in shock - he was so quiet that nobody even realized he had done so much.

Bottom line is, mistakes can happen in both divine choice and point system, no system is perfect, no system is entirely flawed. Divine choice how ever is far too subjective and prone to undermine someones efforts for my liking. I do wish however a point system was as easy to maintain as a divine choice because my god is it alot of work if you wanna do it right.

[Aodh]

Back to work so time to reply!

- AFKing at events you don't really want to be at
- only attending events which give you high points compared to effort involved, or can AFK at without being called out
- dual box and try to get extra points (while really you're just afking with twice as many boxes)
- have a friend dual box you and redeem points for it
- campaign to have items you want reduced in point cost.
- campaign to have events you want to happen increased in point reward.
- campaign to modify the point system blatantly in your favor (ie, if you've been there for a year, introduce a seniority rule. if you're new, implement point-expiration so that older member lose their banked efforts).
- drive away or otherwise discredit people who are competing with you for the same items

Lots of ways to manipulate point systems, not all of them on-the-level.

Most of the issues you mention there are issues with bad members who should be removed from the LS as they would have the same destructive influences with both styles of systems. Assholes will always be assholes. The trick to maintaining a point system is that all the rules involved are agreeable to the general will of the LS.

i doubt the LS bank will be stolen unless the person thats currently in charge of it quits and someone else is put in charge of it. i have no reason not to trust the current leaders,and they are nice people who often put others ahead of themselves.

as for whats sold. basically anything thats craftable is sold,and in the last session an enhancing sword was sold.we had a lone rdm bitch and proclaim that osodes should be sold too lol. but honestly i think osode is more useful to the jobs that use it the most than ehnacing sword would be to a rdm.

The person in charge of our bank was the leader of the LS who had his account "Hacked". This led to huge distrust between leadership and divisions in the LS between who believed/trusted who. If it were to happen, very good chance that everyone would deny blame. Especially of late, Osode isn't that good. Like your situation with the enhancing sword, there's no clean ways to draw the line between keeping something exclusive and others sellable.

Very poor comparison. Can you explain to me how a point system works in that whole "boss pays you when he feels like it?". I guess you have to miss a bunch of paychecks for a certain paycheck? Sounds so much better.

Divine Choice: I'll give you some money at the end of the day if you work hard and can use the money. (At the end of the day) Jim needs more money today to spend on rent, you don't need rent money right now. (Or you need rent money etc., despite if you wanted the money for CDs)
Point System: I'll pay you $10/h for coming to work. Spend it on whatever you want.

The moral of the story is, that you should go with the system you feel most comfortable with.

Not just "comfortable with" but what the LS can agree on. It's still helpfull to discuss the benifits and disadvantages to the different systems. Plus it keeps me looking busy at work! ^.^b

[NynJa]

Very poor comparison. Can you explain to me how a point system works in that whole "boss pays you when he feels like it?". I guess you have to miss a bunch of paychecks for a certain paycheck? Sounds so much better.

Point system: your boss cant dick you over unless they edit your hours in the computer because you can say "I have proof that I worked so and so and so", so gimme the money I'm entitled to.
Divine sytem: your boss can dick you over because your boss pays you how much he feels like paying you. If you work 8 hours, but your boss feels you only worked 5, you're only getting 5 hours of work on your paycheck.

[Norelco]

The moral of the story is, that you should go with the system you feel most comfortable with.

Not just "comfortable with" but what the LS can agree on. It's still helpfull to discuss the benifits and disadvantages to the different systems. Plus it keeps me looking busy at work! ^.^b

Well, my current LS was founded on the point system principle so there was nothing for the LS to agree upon. I believe when you join a linkshell, you should go over the policies of the linkshell and decide if that system is for you. By joining a linkshell, you are essentially saying you agree with the LS philosophy (or at least I would hope).

I joined mostly to be reunited with friends, but I also find our system very fair, so it's a win-win situation for me. :D

[Aelfinn]

Point system: your boss cant dick you over unless they edit your hours in the computer because you can say "I have proof that I worked so and so and so", so gimme the money I'm entitled to.
Divine sytem: your boss can dick you over because your boss pays you how much he feels like paying you. If you work 8 hours, but your boss feels you only worked 5, you're only getting 5 hours of work on your paycheck.

solution: don't work for a scum-sucking asshole that would dick you over like that, aka dont stay in a linkshell where the leadership is corrupt.

[Fng]

Without a point system how can you truely measure if your leader is corrupt?

[TsingTao]

solution: don't work for a scum-sucking asshole that would dick you over like that, aka dont stay in a linkshell where the leadership is corrupt.

That's rather like saying "just go win the Lottery so you don't have to worry about bills any more." We'd all like to pull it off, but it's easier said than done.

In the end, though, that's the only way to have even a remote chance at 'fairness'. Whatever system you implement will get abused if the people in charge are asshats. Either system works well enough if the people in charge aren't douchefaces. No matter who is in charge there's always going to be whiny loot whores trying to twist the system to their advantage.

Get good leadership,
Boot the whiners,
Use whatever system you want.

Profit!

[layoneil]

Point system: your boss cant dick you over unless they edit your hours in the computer because you can say "I have proof that I worked so and so and so", so gimme the money I'm entitled to.

yeah and that's how most of us have 3000 posts on these forums. show just enough effort and you have proof to get what you want.

that's a totally natural human trait and "kick all the people who don't give 100%" is a lot easier said than done.

[NynJa]

Point system: your boss cant dick you over unless they edit your hours in the computer because you can say "I have proof that I worked so and so and so", so gimme the money I'm entitled to.

yeah and that's how most of us have 3000 posts on these forums. show just enough effort and you have proof to get what you want.

that's a totally natural human trait and "kick all the people who don't give 100%" is a lot easier said than done.

is it ??
You were just saying how BG forces you to attend events if you're online...

[layoneil]

is it ??
You were just saying how BG forces you to attend events if you're online...

i'm talking my actual RL job and most of the people that spend all day here from "work".

[Aodh]

is it ??
You were just saying how BG forces you to attend events if you're online...

i'm talking my actual RL job and most of the people that spend all day here from "work".

I'm just here "between windows", I work "during windows" and go home at the end of the camp. ^.^;

[NynJa]

is it ??
You were just saying how BG forces you to attend events if you're online...

i'm talking my actual RL job and most of the people that spend all day here from "work".

I wish I could post from work...

I only post from school and thanks to windower.

[Khalil]

is it ??
You were just saying how BG forces you to attend events if you're online...

i'm talking my actual RL job and most of the people that spend all day here from "work".

I wish I could post from work...

I only post from school and thanks to windower.

I need to get a laptop in order to post from school. FFXI on the school computers FTL!