point systems

[Dirian]

Low post count so think whatever you want.



The basic problems with either system, as I see it, can be described as follows:



1) Points System:

The obvious purpose of a points system is to free leadership from all accusations of bias. Every member of the linkshell is allowed to see exactly where they stand. As mentioned the challenge comes in implementing a fair way to award points and a fair way for those points to be redeemed.

Therein lies the fatal weakness of a points system. The system is, by necessity, as rigid as possible, because people MUST know exactly where they stand, so any flexibility in the rules must be necessarily rare, if nonexistent without the preapproved consent of the majority of the linkshell. Close call decisions can not be allowed to happen, or must only happen in extreme circumstances, because the instant they do there comes the suspicion of bias on the part of the decision makers.

In addition, and perhaps more importantly, the system must, also by necessity, take into account as many things as possible to ensure that everyone is being awarded equally for the effort that they are able to put in. This can quickly lead to ever more complex rules in order to cover all situations to ensure absolute fairness, and eventually it is entirely possible to have a situation where two rules are brought into conflict, and you screw someone over no matter what you do. And of course the more complex your system becomes in order to be perfectly fair to everyone, the more loopholes there will be for people to exploit who are just looking to do the bare minimum.

The system is saved by the fact that situations where rules may come into conflict can be extremely rare, possibly to the point that the leaders drawing up the system never consider their possibility. But of course that makes it all the worse when the situation occurs, and the more complex the system(again in order to ensure complete fairness) the more likely it will occur. Even so for the most part, as far as most of the linkshell is concerned, the whole thing is pretty straight forward and usually easy to understand, but the pitfalls are there even so.


2) Divine Rule:

Divine Rule's primary weakness, is of course bias on the part of the linkshell leader(s), intentional or otherwise. However, such corruption is actually easier to spot in this case, because while humans aren't always smart in general, they will pay attention when it comes to getting their loot. A corrupt leadership with a points system can build rules into it that allow them to exploit the system, all the while having something they can point to in order to say "see? its all on the level". People of course will eventually catch on, or so its hoped, but alot of damage might be done this way. With a divine rule system, people are going to be able to spot corruption pretty quickly, and you'll find that most of your members that are worth a damn will quickly move on.

This leaves the question of how to make sure its a fair system even under shells with leaders who aren't corrupt, but might deal out loot according to bias they aren't even aware of. The solution here is that leaders must build in some checks which may include taking attendence for everything as a reference(always good), multiple leaders voicing their opinions, and constant communication and more importantly trust between the leaders and the general linkshell population(even without points its easy to set up ways for your linkshell members to know where they stand). This can also incidentally lead to a better bond between linkshell mates overall, which is a side benefit to the system.

To put it simply you must must MUST have a trust between your leaders and your members, and the leaders must constantly be communicating with their members, and above all must have more than a smattering of common sense. Which leads to the main advantage of the system, which is that it is in fact better able to adapt to extreme circumstances that might come up. If something comes up where theres a close call, common sense is allowed to, and in fact encouraged to, rule the day, and leaders who have made a habit of using their common sense will find such calls easier to make over people who have based their entire decision making process on a spreadsheet.

Downfall of the system, is that that trust takes time to build, can be easily broken, and no doubt someone will cry about loot somewhere, but usually those are the self righteous lootwhores who are probably a bigger detriment anyway.



As said, both systems have their pros and cons. No system will be perfect because humans are not perfect, and in the end whats important is having a system that everyone can agree on, and that everyone agrees is fair.

[rydiu]

That's what we've been saying all along except you left out the free-lot system....

[Dirian]

Actually, that hasn't been whats said, since most of the thread has been pro point system people extolling the virtues of their selected system, and asking for a good case from those in favor of divine rule besides just "it takes effort to maintain".


At least that was my impression.

[rydiu]

There also those of us who believe both systems are faulty and equally subject to the same types of abuse and are saying why the free-lot system generally works best...

[DrObvious]

It's not a coincidence that all the people supporting free lot are in linkshells that dominate(d) their server.

[Rentwokay]

First post, and scared to death. But here we go.

There is a linkshell on Seraph that exercises a points-based rewards system. Sellable/Tradable items are split evenly as needed, but Rare/Ex items require the spending of points to be obtained.

To avoid the "BST with a Ridill" problem that people have cited in this thread, certain jobs are given priority over certain pieces. All other jobs will have to amass a larger number of points to be eligible for it.

More involved/difficult events give larger points rewards than easier/smaller events to encourage turnout even when you have nothing left to obtain from the event.

I have a friend in this linkshell. (This is not one of those "me = my friend" fairy tales. I was never in the linkshell.) He's been to a very large number of events, but as a mage job, there's a very small pool of items that he earns priority over. As a result, he's got a very hefty points collection. To the best of my knowledge, he's only spent points on one item in all his time with the linkshell.

Recently, he attended another event where a piece he wanted could drop. He was not one of the priority jobs for the piece, but he wanted to use it for certain situations, and he had enough points to outbid even the leaders if he wanted to. Before the linkshell members even gathered together for the fight, he received a barrage of /tells from other members of the linkshell, calling him names and using scare tactics to discourage him from lotting on the piece. One of the leaders of the linkshell told him that if he chose to lot on the item, he would be kicked and it would be his last event.

He did not stockpile his points because he wanted to screw everyone over. He saved his points because he had priority on so few items that were dropped. Now, an item finally comes along that he wants and can use, and he's being threatened not to lot on it, despite the fact that he's completely within the boundaries of the rules.

I'm generally against job priority for this reason, except in the case of items that are flagged as being for all jobs. (Novia Earring for a PLD... Wheeeeee!) But if an item if flagged for specific jobs and a certain person can use it and has been an active-enough member to warrant their receiving it, I think they should have it. Yea, I think a SAM should get a Kirin's Osode if they can afford it. So sue me. They've put in their time, they've pulled their weight, and if they're willing to blow their savings on one item, let them do it. It will most likely bite them in the butt in the long run when they find themselves light years behind the other SAM's when a particularly useful item rolls along.

But my point in this, one of my trademark long-winded posts, is that points systems don't completely eliminate the drama that people have been citing. In some cases, like the situation I cited above, they merely redirect it and cast a shadow on it. By giving players control over the items they can receive, being within the bounds of the rules isn't necessarily enough. As long as we have jealousy, greed, and envy to deal with, we're going to see drama. The only way to avoid drama is to only recruit people with pleasant dispositions and a complete lack of these human flaws, which is naturally quite impossible. This is a MMORPG, for heaven's sake. We're not exactly Mahatma Gandhi behind our keyboards.

Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. Any rules system is perfect if everyone in the linkshell agrees to it, flaws and all. But just because you don't see the disagreement or see the drama, it still may exist.

[Sorrower]

To avoid the "BST with a Ridill" problem that people have cited in this thread, certain jobs are given priority over certain pieces. All other jobs will have to amass a larger number of points to be eligible for it.

Job priority has to be the biggest bunch of bullshit in this game that people can come up with. Thats the same reason why the black man had to give up his seat on the bus to the white man. God people are retarded

Ninja Edit: Example being Crimson Cuisses where LS's make them PLD > RDM > whatever

PLD so they can actually do something other than straight tank mobs
RDM so they can run with the PLD's and cure them
Leaving the whatever's to soak up the pain of waiting months for an item technically attendance and participation wise, should have been theirs a hell of a lot sooner.

[Setats]

Job priority has to be the biggest bunch of bullshit in this game that people can come up with. Thats the same reason why the black man had to give up his seat on the bus to the white man. God people are retarded

You're a fucking retard lol. Can't believe you turned this into a racism issue, hahaha. The whole idea of lot priorities is to help the LS get better... giving gear where it will be best use is hardly a bunch of bullshit.

[Daemonxel]

Job priority has to be the biggest bunch of bullshit in this game that people can come up with. Thats the same reason why the black man had to give up his seat on the bus to the white man. God people are retarded

You're a fucking retard lol. Can't believe you turned this into a racism issue, hahaha. The whole idea of lot priorities is to help the LS get better... giving gear where it will be best use is hardly a bunch of bullshit.

I'll 2nd that.

[Sorrower]

Job priority has to be the biggest bunch of bullshit in this game that people can come up with. Thats the same reason why the black man had to give up his seat on the bus to the white man. God people are retarded

You're a fucking retard lol. Can't believe you turned this into a racism issue, hahaha. The whole idea of lot priorities is to help the LS get better... giving gear where it will be best use is hardly a bunch of bullshit.

I'll 2nd that.

Then giving it to RDM's who rarely ever show up to shit over a RNG or DRK who showed up to everything, and watching the RDM swear up and down he'll quit if he gets skipped so the LS leads, fearing the loss of a well geared yet piss poor attitude of a RDM, give it to him instead, knowing he only showed to shit when it was convenient for him. No points is a simple way of excusing themselves from any faults whatsoever. It's easier to tell when they're using the system to their advantage, but when they use the system and they choose to benefit their friends and the majority of the LS, the others get screwed. I quit an LS that gave a noble's tunic to a whm who was there for 2 weeks and did jack shit in order to get it. The entire time i had 5th most attendance in all of LS, the top 3 were leaders, and i had to wait behind ppl who didn't deserve it but "it'll make the LS better". That's only true if the people you are giving it to are good to begin with. You can't toss A1 on a pile of shit and call it steak.

[Setats]

Jeez, shut up already. You're getting into something a little more in depth.

This is why you have a point system or the divine system.

If you have 2 people with exact same participation, and one is a PLD and one is a RDM, you're going to give the RDM W.Legs? Brilliant! Lot priorities keep the LS progressing. Giving items to jobs that don't get much use from the item keeps the LS from progressing.

[Takeno]

I like it how my LS does it, for example: Ridill.

For a war to get a ridill they have to spend 400 points, but for a THF to get it they have to spend 600 points. I think you cant go any better than that in a point system. >_>

[Sorrower]

I like it how my LS does it, for example: Ridill.

For a war to get a ridill they have to spend 400 points, but for a THF to get it they have to spend 600 points. I think you cant go any better than that in a point system. >_>

works for me

[Dezzimal]

Sorrower is sort of inline with my feelings on "Job Priority". You really have to look at it in a case-by-case basis if you want to be thorough. Three examples:

Crimson Legs: PLD > Others
Self explanitory, 12% movement directly benefits the kiting PLD. PLDs generally kite in a circle (Vrtra, Kirin) and not a straight line, so RDMs should have no problems running the inside route to keep up.

Gaiters: No Priority
My LS leader thought it would be a good idea to give it to WHMs first because they have to follow crimson-wearing PLDs (at which point I remind him he has aegis but no W. Legs). Same case as the RDMs, run the inside route and you'll have no problem keeping up. Note: I didn't disagree with his choice for the people he decided would be ahead of me in the gaiter order, just the reasoning that went in to it.

E. Body: No Priority
If you honest to god have a main BST in your linkshell, he definitely deserves a shot at this if his attendance is up around the warriors or drks in your shell. BST "priority" loot is few and far between, cut them a break if they deserve it.

If you can look at it on a case-by-case basis and make informed distributions, and people can see the reasoning that went in to those decisions, you'll have happy members. I don't like how points systems open themselves up to abuse like was mentioned above.

[Russta]

My linkshell uses both systems.

We have a dictatorial system for HNM, Lumoria and Omega/Ultima drops.

Our Dynamis and Sky runs each have their own individual unique point systems.

It sounds complicated and does take a bit of work for some parts but overall it's pretty fair. I do see and accept the problems from both sides of these arguments though. My linkshell got King Behemoth last night and I, along with the other Paladin, didn't have Crimson Cuisses thus making the fight so much harder than it should've been.

Can I rectify that though?

No.

From looking at our Sky list, there are about 7-8 people above me in points that can destroy my bids and not one of them is a Paladin. We do have methods in place to try and protect it but from a combination of it being an archaic system, having certain older members with astronomical point counts and gil sellers ruining sky to the point where we seldom do it anymore, I'm fucked. I have AF2 pants and am waiting for Omega to put out our next Homam Cosciales so, personally, I don't even really care for Crimson Cuisses. I only want them to make certain fights easier for the linkshell but not only would have I to bust a gut to get far enough ahead in the points to get them, I'd ruin the chance to get the Crimson Greaves for my Corsair that I actually do want.

Even though I kinda like our system and accept that it's fair, something's not right with all that somewhere.

[Takedown3]

I like it how my LS does it, for example: Ridill.

For a war to get a ridill they have to spend 400 points, but for a THF to get it they have to spend 600 points. I think you cant go any better than that in a point system. >_>

works for me

are u the lil girl or the cow/donkey?

[Sorrower]

I like it how my LS does it, for example: Ridill.

For a war to get a ridill they have to spend 400 points, but for a THF to get it they have to spend 600 points. I think you cant go any better than that in a point system. >_>

works for me

are u the lil girl or the cow/donkey?

I'm the pedo taking the picture

[rydiu]

Gaiters: No Priority.

The leader of the previous HNMLS I was in honestly thought MNK (only job he had that could lot) should get first priority on gaiters... that LS used divine rule system..he also refused to give his reasoning, saying we "don't understand equip well enough to make a decision".. they've since only beaten tiamat once ever

lolmnk

[Elcura]

olmnk

I would agree if it wasn't one of the strongest jobs in the game.

[rydiu]

agreed, but priority for gaiters?