point systems

[Rosencrantz]

That's me since 1 month now... Never sold account.

[Takeno]

I really cant think of a situation where these would be sooooo useful to any job, aside from running away from aggro. It's a toy.

As much as I would like to say BLM get priority on gaiters, I have to agree with wafik ( -.-)q


As far as point systems go, I was in a LS a while back that had a point system I really didn't like, tell me if you have heard of anytning like this before:

When deciding who lots on an item, the first thing considered is how many points that memeber has EVER earned in the LS. (current points, ie points left after spending them on shit, meant very little) To illustrate:

PlayerA: Has been in the LS since the beginning, has earned a lot of points but has also spent a lot of points. Total points ever earned, 2000, current points (after spending them on shit), 400

PlayerB: Has been in the LS a few months now, has built up some points but never used them on anything. Total points ever earned, 1100, current points also 1100 because he has never spent them on anything.

If these 2 players wanted to lot something, PlayerA would be the one allowed to lot unless his current points was below the value of the item.


As soon as I realized this was how the point system worked, I left. To IMO, that system is set up to give anybody who has been in the shell since the start anything they want over any newer members. Am I jsut being selfish, or is that point system fucked up?

You're selfish.

Had same type of LS a while back. Hated the system.

[further]

Yeah I didn;t think you did. Figured Gambit was playing it or something. Thought I heard he was for a while or something..?

Anyway, wb.

Edit to above:

Yeah, me too I guess it can be seen as fair by some people (see: Anybody who has been in the LS since the beginning). My biggest issue with it was, I wanted one item, and after standing in line for it the entire time, I started to see people leveling up new jobs that could equip that item and getting to lot it ahead of me. So a month before I quit, I am 3rd in line for that item, and by the time I quit I was suddenly like 6th in line for that item. That fucking sucks

[Rosencrantz]

Gambit uses to log on it sometimes, but 95% of the time it's me. Sorry for off topic, and Ominous point system (Because i figure that's what you was talking about) really sucks. It's not being selfish not wanting to spend 3 months on your computer to lot a low points item.

[Norelco]

Am I jsut being selfish, or is that point system fucked up?

No. You're not. That system is fucked up, and these other people are just messing with your head.

[NynJa]

I said the systems fucked up...and that it would have been different if it were not Remora.

[further]

Naw wasn't Ominous actually. I wasn't in Ominous long enough to care about the point system. They wiped to easy shit way too much ;3

It was a sky LS I had joined between Ominous and SP. Figured since I needed some sky stuff for NIN, and I had some old friends who had started a sky LS, joining them would be a great idea. That's what I get for thinking

Edit: ty for the clarification Nynja. /bow

[Rosencrantz]

Figured since I needed some sky stuff for NIN a sky LS would be a great idea.

Now you're selfish!

[further]

orz

Figured since I needed some sky stuff for NIN, and I had some old friends who had started a sky LS, joining them would be a great idea.

Edited for less selfishness >.>

[Aodh]

Back from the weekend!

1) Points System: As mentioned the challenge comes in implementing a fair way to award points and a fair way for those points to be redeemed.

Therein lies the fatal weakness of a points system. The system is, by necessity, as rigid as possible, because people MUST know exactly where they stand, so any flexibility in the rules must be necessarily rare, if nonexistent without the preapproved consent of the majority of the linkshell. Close call decisions can not be allowed to happen, or must only happen in extreme circumstances, because the instant they do there comes the suspicion of bias on the part of the decision makers.

If a point system is properly executed, everything including the 'close call' decisions will be transparent for the members to question. Where as in a Divine Rule system, these close calls wouldn't be explicitly stated and due to the varying opinion of the leaders, it becomes extreamly situational when it comes to deciding lot based on the leaders opinion to count it or not. Laws (in real life) are published, discussed and amended based on public concensus and with the intent of doing what's best for all in general.

And of course the more complex your system becomes in order to be perfectly fair to everyone, the more loopholes there will be for people to exploit who are just looking to do the bare minimum.

Yes this is also the case, but in a point system that doesn't have any other factors than Job and Current Points, you have to keep participating to stay on top. This would be no different than a Divine Choice system where someone keeps going till they get something. It's an issue with the member, not the point system.

2) Divine Rule: Divine Rule's primary weakness, is of course bias on the part of the linkshell leader(s), intentional or otherwise. However, such corruption is actually easier to spot in this case, because while humans aren't always smart in general, they will pay attention when it comes to getting their loot.

I would contest that it is not easier to spot, but it's more vulnerable to being contested and becomes a subject to everyone's opinions. There's something called "Group Think" where individuals if they feel in a minority situation, especially without power to make the decisions, tend to go with the flow of the group rather than disagree when warranted. For example M. Body drops, and the leaders say "PLD A gets it", but you think you deserve it more. How do you object without sounding greedy? How do you object when the 15 other people who can't equip it and don't want it are already congragulating the person who did get it? How do you as BLM A object on behalf of the second PLD when he doesn't object himself? What happens is everyone might disagree with the decision, just not say anything because of a natural affinity to want to be a part of a group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

A corrupt leadership with a points system can build rules into it that allow them to exploit the system, all the while having something they can point to in order to say "see? its all on the level".

With rules being explicitly put forward, the leaders would fall under the same rules, and members have access to the same exploits. It's easy for a group of people to tear apart written rules, in divine choice you can't tell a leader is corrupt until after they do something bad, repeatedly.

To put it simply you must must MUST have a trust between your leaders and your members, and the leaders must constantly be communicating with their members, and above all must have more than a smattering of common sense. Which leads to the main advantage of the system, which is that it is in fact better able to adapt to extreme circumstances that might come up. If something comes up where theres a close call, common sense is allowed to, and in fact encouraged to, rule the day, and leaders who have made a habit of using their common sense will find such calls easier to make over people who have based their entire decision making process on a spreadsheet.

The "Common Sense" is how the divine system rules. There are no close calls because a mental decision has to be made and decreed. That is the nature of the system, not an advantage.

As said, both systems have their pros and cons. No system will be perfect because humans are not perfect, and in the end whats important is having a system that everyone can agree on, and that everyone agrees is fair.

This is the main argument I've put forward. Both systems are the same in the way that their intent is to get the gear to the people who most deserve it, but they operate under different decision systems.

[Norelco]

Figured since I needed some sky stuff for NIN a sky LS would be a great idea.

Now you're selfish!

LOL yeah, was thinking the same thing.

[Khalil]

I really cant think of a situation where these would be sooooo useful to any job, aside from running away from aggro. It's a toy.

As much as I would like to say BLM get priority on gaiters, I have to agree with wafik ( -.-)q


As far as point systems go, I was in a LS a while back that had a point system I really didn't like, tell me if you have heard of anytning like this before:

When deciding who lots on an item, the first thing considered is how many points that memeber has EVER earned in the LS. (current points, ie points left after spending them on shit, meant very little) To illustrate:

PlayerA: Has been in the LS since the beginning, has earned a lot of points but has also spent a lot of points. Total points ever earned, 2000, current points (after spending them on shit), 400

PlayerB: Has been in the LS a few months now, has built up some points but never used them on anything. Total points ever earned, 1100, current points also 1100 because he has never spent them on anything.

If these 2 players wanted to lot something, PlayerA would be the one allowed to lot unless his current points was below the value of the item.


As soon as I realized this was how the point system worked, I left. To IMO, that system is set up to give anybody who has been in the shell since the start anything they want over any newer members. Am I jsut being selfish, or is that point system fucked up?

That system is fucked up. Don't worry.

[superfob]

aodh brings up a good point w/ Groupthink or as I call it, peer pressure. I'm sure most large LS's have a "in" crowd/clique. Generally this crowd has a familar relationship with a leader(s), and wields non-stated power. Now the power this group holds will vary, but if you look for it, your LS will have a natural formed clique from several factors such as:

1) the people who stay logged the most

2) voice-chat programs

3) online dating relationships

4) old members who isolate new members who don't naturally fit in with this group.

Most people really aren't able to spot their own flaws, so a self-reliance check in the divine system does not always work.

Commitment to the LS should still be considered over job priority IMO. What good does a PLD w/ C legs if he never shows up compared to a RDM/RNG/DRK that does? A LS does not benefit more if the member isn't there.

[Aodh]

2) voice-chat programs

3) online dating relationships

Lol! A few months back part of our LS (Mainly the members who used Ventrillo) split off from our LS, and two of the people leading the new HNM LS had just started dating in RL. They had created their own little vent group called "Team Awesome" and mainly disagreed with how are shell was being run and our institution of an anti-tool/hacking rule. Needless to say the banstick before last knocked out half their leaders.

[Jawas]

No system is perfect, every system had faults, every system is as corupt as the people who admin it.

[Aodh]

No system is perfect, every system had faults, every system is as corupt as the people who choose to abuse it.

Fixed, same gist. Members can take as much advantage of any system as the people who are maintaining it. In order to be "Fair" flaws and potential abuses are introduced into every system. It's just getting it to the point where it can be maintained and generally trusted and considered overall to be fair by the members.

[Norelco]

I totally agree with what you're saying about the cliques. It's all good though. I like to think of myself as a traveler between groups. I don't like to be held down to a specific label or group of friends so I try to be helpful and friendly to everyone.

[Matricide]

2) voice-chat programs

3) online dating relationships

Lol! A few months back part of our LS (Mainly the members who used Ventrillo) split off from our LS, and two of the people leading the new HNM LS had just started dating in RL. They had created their own little vent group called "Team Awesome" and mainly disagreed with how are shell was being run and our institution of an anti-tool/hacking rule. Needless to say the banstick before last knocked out half their leaders.

HEH. yeah.

[Jawas]

No system is perfect, every system had faults, every system is as corupt as the people who choose to abuse it.

Fixed, same gist. Members can take as much advantage of any system as the people who are maintaining it. In order to be "Fair" flaws and potential abuses are introduced into every system. It's just getting it to the point where it can be maintained and generally trusted and considered overall to be fair by the members.

Well, if a system is admin'd correctly people shouldnt be able to abuse it. If the admins of a system arent paying attention to people abusing it, you have more problems than you know about. More or less, it is the people who admin a system that tend to have their ears bent on one issue or another.

The problem with most systems <point system or w.e> is that rare/ex is not fair across the board. The best body piece for one job is bought from the AH, while another job's best body piece is a rare drop from a HNM.

[further]

Well, if a system is admin'd correctly people shouldnt be able to abuse it. If the admins of a system arent paying attention to people abusing it, you have more problems than you know about. More or less, it is the people who admin a system that tend to have their ears bent on one issue or another.

The problem with most systems <point system or w.e> is that rare/ex is not fair across the board. The best body piece for one job is bought from the AH, while another job's best body piece is a rare drop from a HNM.

Rate up.