point systems

[Norelco]

That would be great if Koenig Cuirass wasn't rare/ex

[Khalil]

Every job in this game isn't the same the other. If it were, I promise you a lot of people would have quit a long time ago. What keeps the playerbase alive (for the time being, anyways) is the fact that there are a variety of things to do and jobs.

The fact of the matter is, a point system is slighty better than a divine choice linkshell, because, simply put, it removes the judgment and allows you to see where everyone stands, including the leaders. I'm not trying to say that a point system will never fail, because it can and it requires a lot of work to keep it updated. But once properly maintained, it ensures almost the best rewarding system.

[Aodh]

Well, if a system is admin'd correctly people shouldnt be able to abuse it. If the admins of a system arent paying attention to people abusing it, you have more problems than you know about. More or less, it is the people who admin a system that tend to have their ears bent on one issue or another.

The problem with most systems <point system or w.e> is that rare/ex is not fair across the board. The best body piece for one job is bought from the AH, while another job's best body piece is a rare drop from a HNM.

Point systems (unless the points are physically changed by the person administering) usually have some flaws which are created to try to make the system "More Fair" to the general shell. There's only so much the people who create the system can do to hinder abuse without making the system too rigid or unfair.

As to the second point, you are absolutely correct, this game is so unbalanced with end game gear that you either have everyone wearing Weskits (thanks to the IS update) or a very few number with other armor. Remember how rare BRD JSE was prior to the desynth method, now it's just very expensive. End game armor is generally unballanced and there's very little you can do.

On that note, one of the things that came up when talking about what is or isn't sellable for our LS when making the rules. Kirin's Osode we decided wouldn't be sellable, same with Herald's Gaiters. But when it came to things like Shining Cloth, Dragon Talon, Venomous Claw, Cashmire, and other expensive (at the time) items that we would let then be sellable as opposed to Shining to WHM, Talons to BLM, Claws to NIN, Cashmire to BRD. This was due to the issue you mentioned, that some of the best gear for one job or another (the example we used was elemental staves+1) doesn't come from things we kill and you need other things worth money to buy them.

[Khamsin]

Point systems (unless the points are physically changed by the person administering) usually have some flaws which are created to try to make the system "More Fair" to the general shell. There's only so much the people who create the system can do to hinder abuse without making the system too rigid or unfair.

Shouldn't it be, the less flaws and more rigid, the more fair? And the more flaws and less rigid, the less fair?

[Aodh]

Point systems (unless the points are physically changed by the person administering) usually have some flaws which are created to try to make the system "More Fair" to the general shell. There's only so much the people who create the system can do to hinder abuse without making the system too rigid or unfair.

Shouldn't it be, the less flaws and more rigid, the more fair? And the more flaws and less rigid, the less fair?

Flaws are byproducts of weaknesses in point systems. There are times when common sense would say one thing but the rules say another. As a result, more rules/conditions are created to reflect "What should be done".

For example, Killing a God in sky is worth 1 point, but camping and killing a land king from the first window is worth 2. People would leave sky runs to camp land HNM effectivly ending the run. Or they wouldn't show in the first place because they could earn more points for camping over participating in a planned event. So rules need to be put in place to make sure that the people who are too late to go to sky but not camp aren't peanized, nor are the people who stay in Sky rather than go to camp.

In an attempt to be fair, we have to accomidate that possibility, and as a result an exploit is opened for someone who knows how to abuse it. The rules we implimented and the way the events are weighted were adjusted to make it so that if you went to camp first window or stayed to finish the sky run, you earn the same amount of points.

Or another example, a poor LS claims King Behemoth, and starts killing. It's obvious that they wouldn't kill so the linkshell is gathered and we have to wait for rage for them to wipe, are camp points awarded? People have been standing around for over an hour, even if they weren't there when it popped.

For static rules to be fair, exceptions need to be put in place that are applicable to everyone. This can lead to abuse, but it makes point systems to be considered as fair as Divine Rule because contributions are accurately represented.

[Jawas]

All I am trying to say is, there is no perfect system. I can go back and forth with anyone on every system. Even the system, my LS uses, has not been perfect. We accept the flaws and move on. If you can not move you, than you find a LS where you enjoy the loot system.

I have seen EVERY system get fucked. I have seen LS's break up over point systems, cause the person with the most points were able to lot on items they could use, but they had the most points. I have seen friends out right give their IRL friends gear over people who should have been able to lot against their friends. You name, I have seen it, witnessed it, or heard about it. There is no perfect system, the game isn't set up for a perfect system.

[Khamsin]

Point systems (unless the points are physically changed by the person administering) usually have some flaws which are created to try to make the system "More Fair" to the general shell. There's only so much the people who create the system can do to hinder abuse without making the system too rigid or unfair.

Shouldn't it be, the less flaws and more rigid, the more fair? And the more flaws and less rigid, the less fair?

Flaws are byproducts of weaknesses in point systems. There are times when common sense would say one thing but the rules say another. As a result, more rules/conditions are created to reflect "What should be done".

For example, Killing a God in sky is worth 1 point, but camping and killing a land king from the first window is worth 2. People would leave sky runs to camp land HNM effectivly ending the run. Or they wouldn't show in the first place because they could earn more points for camping over participating in a planned event. So rules need to be put in place to make sure that the people who are too late to go to sky but not camp aren't peanized, nor are the people who stay in Sky rather than go to camp.

In an attempt to be fair, we have to accomidate that possibility, and as a result an exploit is opened for someone who knows how to abuse it. The rules we implimented and the way the events are weighted were adjusted to make it so that if you went to camp first window or stayed to finish the sky run, you earn the same amount of points.

Or another example, a poor LS claims King Behemoth, and starts killing. It's obvious that they wouldn't kill so the linkshell is gathered and we have to wait for rage for them to wipe, are camp points awarded? People have been standing around for over an hour, even if they weren't there when it popped.

For static rules to be fair, exceptions need to be put in place that are applicable to everyone. This can lead to abuse, but it makes point systems to be considered as fair as Divine Rule because contributions are accurately represented.

Well, this all depends on the goal of your system. Are you trying to make people happy, or ensure the success of the linkshell? Granted, they should go hand-in-hand in an ideal selfless drama-free world, but people are greedy. Thus, there is a gap between a person's happiness and their well-being, and in that gap is your control over them. They will put up with shit, and still come back for more so they can get their items. How much they will put up with before they leave is the size of that gap. This is where you drive the wedge of your LS lotting system.

But, we're in luck! As it turns out, greed is the glue that holds us together. Instead of just giving everyone what they want and trying to make everyone happy (which really would just end up causing drama and LS failure), you now have the power to distribute drops in whatever way you deem appropriate. If you want to give w.legs to PLDs and ridills and e.bodies to WARs, the RDMs and BSTs will be okay with that. And as long as they're okay with that, the LS will remain working together to get everyone their items.

This is one way of managing a linkshell, with cohesiveness and group well-being in mind at the cost of some happiness (depending on how deep you drive that wedge). Personally, I think a points system is the best way of accommodating this type of linkshell.

For a linkshell based around making people happy and awarding items to people based purely on effort and loyalty for their own personal use without expectation that those items be put to use to further the goals of the LS, a divine choice system seems better suited. It is less complicated than a points system, and the complications of a point system are only there to ensure items go to the "right jobs". In this type of LS, there are no "right jobs".

So before we get too far along the topic of "Divine Choice or Points", we have to evaluate first the goals of our LS. I see arguments referring to both kinds of LSs: ones that reward effort only, and ones that award items in the best interest of LS functionality with effort being only one factor. Sometimes these arguments are in reference to one another and really shouldn't be part of the same discussion.

[NynJa]

I have seen friends out right give their IRL friends gear over people who should have been able to lot against their friends. You name, I have seen it, witnessed it, or heard about it. There is no perfect system, the game isn't set up for a perfect system.

that is a problem with the leader, not the system

[Dezzimal]

I have seen friends out right give their IRL friends gear over people who should have been able to lot against their friends. You name, I have seen it, witnessed it, or heard about it. There is no perfect system, the game isn't set up for a perfect system.

that is a problem with the leader, not the system

Thats what we've been getting at. Points system - hard for a leader to mess with, but can be somewhat tampered with by its membes hoarding points etc. Divine System - Easier for a leader to mess with, harder for a member to mess with.

[Dirian]

I think thats what everyone is saying actually Jawas lol. No system is perfect, and now I think we're just all agreeing and pointing out flaws in either system.

Back from the weekend!

1) Points System: As mentioned the challenge comes in implementing a fair way to award points and a fair way for those points to be redeemed.

Therein lies the fatal weakness of a points system. The system is, by necessity, as rigid as possible, because people MUST know exactly where they stand, so any flexibility in the rules must be necessarily rare, if nonexistent without the preapproved consent of the majority of the linkshell. Close call decisions can not be allowed to happen, or must only happen in extreme circumstances, because the instant they do there comes the suspicion of bias on the part of the decision makers.

If a point system is properly executed, everything including the 'close call' decisions will be transparent for the members to question. Where as in a Divine Rule system, these close calls wouldn't be explicitly stated and due to the varying opinion of the leaders, it becomes extreamly situational when it comes to deciding lot based on the leaders opinion to count it or not. Laws (in real life) are published, discussed and amended based on public concensus and with the intent of doing what's best for all in general.

And the general effect of those laws is overcomplexity because when it comes to the governing of millions of people, you just can't trust anyone to make a fair and impartial decision. As you said in a post following this, sometimes rules say one thing, but every bit of common sense says the other. So of course Divine Rules fatal weakness is you need leaders(always plural) who can make decisions based on common sense. Much easier said than done, but then so is making a point system thats equally fair to everyone, so yeah Im agreeing again that no system is perfect.

And of course the more complex your system becomes in order to be perfectly fair to everyone, the more loopholes there will be for people to exploit who are just looking to do the bare minimum.

Yes this is also the case, but in a point system that doesn't have any other factors than Job and Current Points, you have to keep participating to stay on top. This would be no different than a Divine Choice system where someone keeps going till they get something. It's an issue with the member, not the point system.

In that case my point was more that someone can keep exploiting loopholes till they're found out, whereas you only get to lot and hide once in a good divine rule system, and you usually can't lot until you've proven yourself dedicated enough to have earned it anyway.

2) Divine Rule: Divine Rule's primary weakness, is of course bias on the part of the linkshell leader(s), intentional or otherwise. However, such corruption is actually easier to spot in this case, because while humans aren't always smart in general, they will pay attention when it comes to getting their loot.

I would contest that it is not easier to spot, but it's more vulnerable to being contested and becomes a subject to everyone's opinions. There's something called "Group Think" where individuals if they feel in a minority situation, especially without power to make the decisions, tend to go with the flow of the group rather than disagree when warranted. For example M. Body drops, and the leaders say "PLD A gets it", but you think you deserve it more. How do you object without sounding greedy? How do you object when the 15 other people who can't equip it and don't want it are already congragulating the person who did get it? How do you as BLM A object on behalf of the second PLD when he doesn't object himself? What happens is everyone might disagree with the decision, just not say anything because of a natural affinity to want to be a part of a group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

No you certainly have a point there. Usually when its something like that things have been worked out long before hand, or you just let both plds lot. Its still easier to see some leader loot whoring everything than it is to argue with rules seemingly everyone has agreed on was more my point. Kind of the same thing applies there though I guess, where it becomes opinion over whether the rules are really "fair". How you would go about such things depends on your shell dynamic no doubt though.

A corrupt leadership with a points system can build rules into it that allow them to exploit the system, all the while having something they can point to in order to say "see? its all on the level".

With rules being explicitly put forward, the leaders would fall under the same rules, and members have access to the same exploits. It's easy for a group of people to tear apart written rules, in divine choice you can't tell a leader is corrupt until after they do something bad, repeatedly.

Depends on your members. If your leaders built exploits into the system, they usually know about them first, for obvious reasons.

Either way exploits won't really be found out till they're overly abused. Push again.

To put it simply you must must MUST have a trust between your leaders and your members, and the leaders must constantly be communicating with their members, and above all must have more than a smattering of common sense. Which leads to the main advantage of the system, which is that it is in fact better able to adapt to extreme circumstances that might come up. If something comes up where theres a close call, common sense is allowed to, and in fact encouraged to, rule the day, and leaders who have made a habit of using their common sense will find such calls easier to make over people who have based their entire decision making process on a spreadsheet.

The "Common Sense" is how the divine system rules. There are no close calls because a mental decision has to be made and decreed. That is the nature of the system, not an advantage.

The nature of the system is its advantage, just like everything being explicit, or even transparent as you said, is both the nature, and the advantage of a points system.

Common Sense ruling is the primary advantage of a divine rule system, while also being its biggest weakness. All the biggest potential abuses come from the biggest potential good in either system.

As said, both systems have their pros and cons. No system will be perfect because humans are not perfect, and in the end whats important is having a system that everyone can agree on, and that everyone agrees is fair.

This is the main argument I've put forward. Both systems are the same in the way that their intent is to get the gear to the people who most deserve it, but they operate under different decision systems.

Yeah pretty much lol. Since the endpoint is that we all mostly agree both systems are flawed under corrupt leadership, or corrupt rules theres no real point to this other than that Im bored lfg on pld.


For what its worth my LS uses a tier system. Members start at tier 6 as trial members, and become tier 5 when they become full members. After that they are brought up for promotion as time progresses and they show their participation(any member can recommend to an officer for someone to be promoted). Promotions are put up for vote for the rest of the shell.

From there, every item is assigned a tier, and anyone of that tier or above can lot it provided they're within 5 levels of being able to equip it. In some rare cases, items are given priority to certain jobs, but only of that tier. Wlegs are tier 3+ pld. If no pld is tier 3+, then it goes to all the other jobs that can use of that tier or higher, so a tier 3 drk is going to get wlegs before a tier 6 pld.

For people with multiple jobs, they pick two jobs they want to bling out as their main lotting/secondary lotting jobs. Any change to this is submitted to officers for approval. We don't want to punish people for leveling multiple jobs, but we don't want one tier person with 6 level 75 jobs lotting on everything under the sun when they could spread the wealth some instead to people who have been just as dedicated but have recieved nothing. Theres nothing though stopping someone who has to come to every event as brd from lotting stuff for their level 75 mnk.

Dynamis is different. If you have a job within 5 levels to use a piece(not northlands) and you comment it, you can lot it if you're a full member. For northlands, its mostly the same thing but you have to be of level, not lower, unless of course no one else can lot.

Those are the basics. There are some other more specific stuff that isn't all that necessary to go into right now. I won't say the system is perfect. There are some flaws in it, but its whats worked for us thus far.

[Volken]

Naw wasn't Ominous actually. I wasn't in Ominous long enough to care about the point system. They wiped to easy shit way too much ;3

Your current LS (SP) full wipes to 88% health Tiamat, Kreutzet, and can't even kill Cerb. Maybe it isn't the LS

(Welcome to Remora.)

No idea why someone who never went to an event and left without hard feelings would start shit for no reason when your LS sucks a bigger dick.

[Khalil]

What I'm wondering about is how you "built exploits" in a point system? Do you decrease the point value of an item if you're a leader of long-time member? How does it work? From what I can tell, the only way of exploiting a point system is if the Leaders are tampering with the points of their own. If so, then I'm fairly certain the members would have noticed what's going on. Heck, I keep an eye out for the Leaders in my LS, mainly because I'll be getting an item unconested real soon and my (greed) will have an impact.

[Jawas]

I think thats what everyone is saying actually Jawas lol. No system is perfect, and now I think we're just all agreeing and pointing out flaws in either system.

I agree its just been 29 pages of the same shit. The real truth is:

YOUR ONLY HAPPY WITH THE SYSTEM THAT GETS YOU MORE LOOT

[Dirian]

YOUR ONLY HAPPY WITH THE SYSTEM THAT GETS YOU MORE LOOT

That I think is the perfect system really.

[Norelco]

Thats what we've been getting at. Points system - hard for a leader to mess with, but can be somewhat tampered with by its membes hoarding points etc.

Don't confuse hoarding points with people waiting for a drop they really want.

[layoneil]

I think thats what everyone is saying actually Jawas lol. No system is perfect, and now I think we're just all agreeing and pointing out flaws in either system.

I agree its just been 29 pages of the same shit. The real truth is:

YOUR ONLY HAPPY WITH THE SYSTEM THAT GETS YOU MORE LOOT