point systems

[BRP]

So, Dirge of Cerberus? Worth getting or not?

I heard its decent at best. Personally, I don't go by reviews.

Rydiu, you seem like an epic sized moron. Its too believeable not to be true.

[rydiu]

So, Dirge of Cerberus? Worth getting or not?

Quit trying to derail the topic, punk.

If anyone wants a fair system, then everybody in the LS needs to be treated as equals and not put in such a situation where certain people "know best". Obviously some people have much more experience and can tell people when they shouldn't lot, but for certain things there is no reasosn to say they can or can't lot if they are going to use it...

Aside from dynamis runs where you have random people coming together, there should be no point systems or "leader point" systems... People should take the time and get to know themselves and know what they should or should not lot on... its not a big deal.

Thats how my LS does it.. We've had 1 person who we had to kick because he did things like Setat here said I do (get loot then never go to that camp again).. we've had a couple people who came and got stuff then pretty much quit the game or left the HNM scene. But that was their choice and its not like we can't get those items again since we're always doing the same stuff like every other HNMLS..

But oh yeah, you guys don't like to camp... so whats the big deaal? Apparently your leaders suck if you can't trust them!! Find a new LS! lol

[Dezzimal]

I think points systems work well for things that can be done at a consistant pace, like dynamis or limbus. Things that are spur of the moment like Cerberus/tiamat and other things that can be at awkward times like fafnir/kb/aspid are better done nazi-style.

Any leader (and coleaders) should have a decent feeling of how much each member has contributed, how their attitude is, and what their worth to the shell as a player is.

[rydiu]

Any leader (and coleaders) should have a decent feeling of how much each member has contributed, how their attitude is, and what their worth to the shell as a player is.

At the risk of making my own argument seem pointless-

In a perfect world both systems work equally well.... fair leaders saying who lots versus fair-minded members who know when to lot....

However, seeing how many people think that my idea of a fair system is so completely unfair and what-not, there is some room for discussion. lolsash

[Zigma]

Point systems are gay.

[DeadLegend]

Rydiu, you seem like an epic sized moron. Its too believeable not to be true.

You missed the original rydiu thread.
http://www.theorderls.com/phpBB2/viewto ... 858#291858
It begins there and gets much worse as the thread goes on. Some truly legendary quotes are to be found therein.


I hear Dirge of Cerberus is so-so, not worth buying but a decent rental.

If you're gonna have a point system, and it's not in place from the start of the ls/dynamis, then it'll never be perfect. What dezzimal said seems kinda like what my ls does. There are values to items and values to attendance but not a rock solid attendance "points" system for kings/general attendance(as far as I know), however for dynamis we have a fully laid out point system with values on attendance and items obtained, with each af piece having a point value determined by its usefulness/rarity as an equip when compared to other pieces in that slot for that job. AF2s are broken into 3 tiers determined by the players of each job in the ls. Tier1 is the most valuable while tier3 is the least valuable, each tier has a price for winning an item on that tier, and each tier has a more exclusive lotting pool depending on the span of attendance points between lotters of those pieces. Ice lots were chosen and set in stone, once you've declared an ice main, that is your ice lot until you have both the pieces. You can't lot an ice "rot" until everyone maining that piece has it. Shadow ring/mantle go by overall attendance. Mantle is a pld lot and ring is pld/nin lot, but again you have to declare which one you'd like as a main and which as a rot. As far as I know those are separate from af2 points. Certain pieces have a "rare" tag added to them so that even in case of close point standings, the lotting pool might be made more exclusive. Of course usually once we're told something has a "rare" tag and someone gets pissed off, we end up getting 3 in that raid.

Dynamis lotting is completely separate from everything outside dynamis. Both for the reasons dezzimal stated(it's a planned, scheduled activity done at the linkshell's leisure, paid for by the linkshell, in a schedule created by all linkshells, which you either can attend or can't attend regularly) and because we have a few raiders who aren't ls members.

[edgarfigaro]

And 18 legit people, sincerely trying to claim (standing there pretending doesn't count) will outclaim 18 botters any day...

I lol'ed

[Olorin]

As others have said if you need a points system then your Ls is prolly doomed already. Especially if the need for the points system is caused by corrupt leaders. Whos going to come up with, institute, and administer this new points system? the leaders, you've already seen what good they are. If I were you I would shop around for a new LS. If you cant find a place with trustworthy leaders/memebers who are fun to talk/play with then you may as well just hit the delete character button, because 90% of the game is dependent on other people, especially endgame.

[Matricide]

if you cant trust your leaders/officers to be fair then you should find a new linkshell, i hate point systems.

and yeah, rydiu is a fucking idiot, i don't even read his posts im surprised people are still bothering to respond to him after his epic thread.

sup computer expert.

[yayajax]

I agree pretty much everything Vandra posted above:
http://www.theorderls.com/phpBB2/viewto ... 259#300259

Whenever there's a system, there's always someone who knows how to take advantage of it. There was major drama in a point system LS with members controlling the entire system, basically if you have overall too many points the LS is working for you, and you points will go on build up from events while the drop rate is not high enough to use up the members' points.

Point system for dynamis would just favor whoever started/leading the dynamis LS or whoever started the system in end-game LS. It is because dynamis will not run without the leader and in the other hand dynamis can keep going if some members missing. That leaves leaders with 100% attendence in most case and therefore, highest point to get their full set AF2.

I would think if leaders decide who get the drops by 1) Attendence, 2) Working Rate (exmaple: tanks for kiting, I know NIN spamming Utsusemi macro for hours is a pain.), 3) Attitude toward LS, 4) Job factors, this should be somewhat close to "fair", buttomline, good leaders are important.

[Norelco]

Whenever there's a system, there's always someone who knows how to take advantage of it. There was major drama in a point system LS with members controlling the entire system, basically if you have overall too many points the LS is working for you, and you points will go on build up from events while the drop rate is not high enough to use up the members' points.

Not if you have a rule saying you can't buy multiple items in a row. I think this would at least stop someone from monopolizing a series of drops. But on the other hand, technically they earned it if they had accumulated the points. That's what they are for.

[Lordwafik]

if you cant trust your leaders/officers to be fair then you should find a new linkshell, i hate point systems.

and yeah, rydiu is a fucking idiot, i don't even read his posts im surprised people are still bothering to respond to him after his epic thread.

sup computer expert.

Wait, you mean his posts were meant to be serious?

[Norelco]

Any LS care to share their point system rules and point values etc.?
My LS has recently decided to change its style of lotting due to un uproar of rules being bent/broken by leaders. We kinda want to see how other LSs decide on points.

Info. on LS. We do all dynamis's, Sea, KS99, and all other events in game but GroundGods. (no one wants to camp).

Thx, BM.

Feel free to read our point system and lotting rules at http://remedy.cjb.net in our "Rules and Regulations" forums. In case you were curious, Limbus and Dynamis are separated out and have their own lotting systems.

*edited for spelling

[yayajax]

Not if you have a rule saying you can't buy multiple items in a row. I think this would at least stop someone from monopolizing a series of drops. But on the other hand, technically they earned it if they had accumulated the points. That's what they are for.

You are absolutely correct, however, it should be better to find a way to balance points between members and drop rate instead of putting more limits. Whenever there's limit, there's always another way to get around.

[Norelco]

You are absolutely correct, however, it should be better to find a way to balance points between members and drop rate instead of putting more limits. Whenever there's limit, there's always another way to get around.

Do you have any examples or suggestions? What do you mean by limit?

[Dank]

And 18 legit people, sincerely trying to claim (standing there pretending doesn't count) will outclaim 18 botters any day...

I lol'ed

I made it my sig about 2 minutes after he typed it.

[yayajax]

You are absolutely correct, however, it should be better to find a way to balance points between members and drop rate instead of putting more limits. Whenever there's limit, there's always another way to get around.

Do you have any examples or suggestions? What do you mean by limit?

Say like the limit of lotting per week, say member is only allowed to lot 3 items a time, and I had known people who bring 2 characters (he declared these 2 characters belong to 2 persons, however....), that will sum up 6 items. Point system should be fair, until one day your LS has member who know how to sneak around.

[Jujubie]

We use point systems. We have separate systems for Dynamis, Limbus, King/HNM, and Sky.

Each Sackholder keeps track of a certain area. I keep track for Dynamis. I have an excel spreadsheet that keeps all the info. If you want more info, I can send you a copy of my spreadsheet and our long list of rules that go along with it. After over a year of keeping points in Dynamis we have a rule for about every situation. LOL.

For more info send me a PM either here or on http://www.Kazoku-LS.com forums.

Juju

BTW: It is a shload of work to keep track of things (weekly updating important) and answering questions from the entire LS.

[loial]

As others have said if you need a points system then your Ls is prolly doomed already.

LOL - its an Olorin! /wave

Actually, I would disagree with you. A well-drawn out points system can work excellently. I had this talk with our leader a long time ago. However, I did recognize that the (what I would consider) flawless points system we used in EQ2 would not stand a chance in FFXI. Its a different game. You could bang through 3-6 "events" in about 2-3 hours in that game, whereas a "sky event" could be 4-6 hours or dynamis would be 3 hours+.

People couldn't get away with afks since if all 24 people (24 = full alliance there, instead of FFXI's 18.) were not at their keyboards, there was a good chance you'd lose to whatever mega boss you were fighting.

I'm sure lots of LS that do events, even stuff like sea or sky, know that people take AFKs all the time. There is no way to accurately credit those people that put in the full effort vs. those that do it half-assed.

The beauty of a points system is that it takes the guesswork of "who gets what gear" out of the leader's hands. And being an ex-leader myself, that is the best thing you can ask for. There was no drama ever with a "good" points system since everyone knew where they stood. And they knew that "Well, I didn't get that piece of gear because either I spent my points on something else or I don't show up enough." Either way, the only finger pointing that could be done was at only yourself instead of at the leader.

If you have a leader you can trust, then you don't need a points system. I am intrigued though at how other LS handle a points system in this game

[Norelco]

Say like the limit of lotting per week, say member is only allowed to lot 3 items a time, and I had known people who bring 2 characters (he declared these 2 characters belong to 2 persons, however....), that will sum up 6 items. Point system should be fair, until one day your LS has member who know how to sneak around.

It differs from LS to LS, but until we are given a reason to not trust someone, we will trust our linkshell members. I'm not an officer of my linkshell, but I'm fairly certain this is their approach. We know who controls which toons, and we only count a person's attendance once if they bring two characters. There's no double dipping.

Currently, I don't even think we get enough drops so much so that a person can lot 3 items per week. :D

Money drops are sell/split amongst those who attend the events anyway.