point systems

[yayajax]

What if that person w/ BLM as his 3rd job attends all LS events as BLM because they're always short on them?

If that's the situation, will there be any other BLMs as competitions? lol?
Remember, that's the BLM your LS relys on.

[Faranim]

What if that person w/ BLM as his 3rd job attends all LS events as BLM because they're always short on them?

Then he'd lot the hat. It's not rocket science. Everyone in the LS should have at least SOME idea of how much everyone else contributes, and what jobs they use the most often.

Actually for our Dynamis we use the tried-and-true "list 3 jobs in your search comment and that's what you lot" method.

[Norelco]

Point systems are too complicated and require too much work to maintain and enforce.

Join a LS with people who can weight their own need for an item vs other members. If you're doing Dynamis and BLM Hat drops, somebody with BLM as their 3rd job should pass the hat to a Main job BLM without even thinking about any other alternatives.

IMO the added "fairness" you get out of a ponit system isn't nearly worth the trouble of implementing one.

That's laziness right there. If someone is willing to maintain it then let them. There's nothing to enforce. You can't argue with numbers sitting right in front of you.

I'm sorry, but it's impossible for most people to weight their own need for an item vs. other members. That's even more difficult than maintaining a point system in my opinion. Let's say I was a WAR, and I have 100 points accumulated, I'll be damned if something like a K.Body goes to a PLD who barely shows up to events and has say, like 20 points. If I want the KBody for whatever reason (maybe I'll level PLD, maybe I'm putting together a tanking set for WAR), I'm not going to defer to someone who didn't work for it.

[NynJa]

Point systems are too complicated and require too much work to maintain and enforce.

Join a LS with people who can weight their own need for an item vs other members. If you're doing Dynamis and BLM Hat drops, somebody with BLM as their 3rd job should pass the hat to a Main job BLM without even thinking about any other alternatives.

IMO the added "fairness" you get out of a ponit system isn't nearly worth the trouble of implementing one.

Those systems also find that the members who are always sucking the leaders dick are the ones who have a mannequin eith E.Bd, one with M.Bd, one with A.Bd, and one with a spare relic weapon, when that guy who isnt exactly best friends with the leader, but always at camps and there for the LS at events, doesnt even have an E.Bd.


If taking five minutes to make an initial excel chart, then taking two-three minutes after any event to update points is too fucking complicated and time consuming, you'll have greater problems in life.

[yayajax]

That's laziness right there. If someone is willing to maintain it then let them. There's nothing to enforce. You can't argue with numbers sitting right in front of you.

I'm sorry, but it's impossible for most people to weight their own need for an item vs. other members.

Depends on people and LS should choose the best system, at least in my LS it is similar to Faranim's I would assume, we respect, we know, and we treat each other like family.

[Gatsby]

I've adapted our point system to work with EQDKP (http://www.eqdkp.com) which makes point tallying really freaking easy. Its easily able to track who got what where and where they earned their points.

Those that say points are difficult don't want to use points (fine by me) or haven't looked into making point tallying easier.

But in the end, does it really matter which system you use? Theres going to be favorites played in either method. Just go with a method that your core membership agrees with.

[superfob]

If you're doing Dynamis and BLM Hat drops, somebody with BLM as their 3rd job should pass the hat to a Main job BLM without even thinking about any other alternatives.

My statement was more in response to this. I don't think this scenario covers the complexity of what constitutes what is "fair".

For instance, you have the 3rd jobber BLM who has been converted to a BLM main, and a single jobber BLM. The 3rd jobber BLM probably is a long time member and might have his 2 other jobs geared out by the LS but has strong attendence. Single jobber BLM is kind of new, but has shown strong attendence.

No matter who wins, drama-bitch fest will occur because both will have felt they "earned" the AF2 Hat. Points system helps minimize this if the members of the LS accept it.

Really the only two ways I see LS loot distrobution working is:

1) Nazi style. Leader(s) determine who gets what. Members must give full trust. Complainers get removed.

2) Points systems based on contributions only. As mentioned, accrue and spending values must be "fair" and timely. Remove job priorities. Job priorities allow the lot and run type members to receive rare gear which gets wasted when they leave for the next LS that can gear them.

First option is mostly about damage control after lotting assignments go out while option two is mostly upfront work.

[Suds]

First of all Rydiu, I'd believe that Mithra in your Avatar is a real pic of Paulina, your JP in game wife before I believe this shit:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2.../RydiuChat.jpg

Its going to start off with how much JP cock I suck...

You suck JP cock.

I told you the people on BG were not going to put up with your bullshit. This isn't KI Valefor forums. The people posting are not retarded noobs (well most of them) that wanna lick your JP cock lovin balls, so they can join Wizardy. Many of them are in very strong-skilled LSs and will call out retards when they see them. (Others just quote 1 line and write lol"topic" in order to whore up their post-count.)

Now, it is entirely possible that your LS has a point system. They are all JP and you can't understand a fucking thing they say. Here is a quote from another NA in Wizardry from BG General forums:

I need a quick translation, please. If you can help me out, post here and I'll PM.

YOU ARE IN A FUCKING JAPANESE LS... ask them retard! Oh yeah, you are just in the LS to ride JP sacks and get ITEMZ!WWw

the only times you've seen us "blm zerg" stuff is during NA time when half the LS isn't online

This is bull shit. I have seen your LS funnel BLM after BLM into alliance. Once one was dead or out of MP, they were replaced by another talentless retard. If I have to watch one more "Sleeping potion Fafhog" with JP THF fucking up skillchain after skillchain... I'm going to poke my fucking eyes out.

Truth is, Valefor is a joke. We were dominated by JP for so long that NA never got a footing. Now that the JP quit/left/joined mana-zerg LSs the server was left with no dominat LSs. We are now a collection of watered-down endgame communities. While there are a few good NA and JP LSs, there are none that are feared and respected by all. Being the best HNM LS on Valefor is like winning the 110M hurdles at the Para-Olympic games. Even if you are a winner in your own eyes, and a few people around you... you are still a fucking gimp.

Everyone on valefor knows wizardry is the most skilled LS on the server

OMG! This is the funniest thing I have ever seen you say. Your attempts at things like Cerb and Hydra show how terrible you guys really are... down right LOL-able. Everybody on our server knows Wizardy is a group of talentless Mana-Zerging idiots. If you confuse this with skill, then you are a bigger retard than everybody says you are. Again:

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i226/Sudrol/Main.jpg http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i226/Sudrol/Index.jpg

The chakram AV drops is 100x better than lolsash

ROFL... good stuff. Keep up the posting. Soon you will be the retarded guy quoted in every sig from BG, KI to ZAM.

On topic: there is no perfect system. In some LSs, a system rewarding seniority, items usefulness to LS, and LS activity work. In some a point system works just fine. In others "1 main job" system for rare/ex items and sell/spliting AH-able items works as well. Aodh said "It's not about which system is the best, it about what the members believe to be fair and can operate within." I couldn't have said it better myself.

[yayajax]

If you're doing Dynamis and BLM Hat drops, somebody with BLM as their 3rd job should pass the hat to a Main job BLM without even thinking about any other alternatives.

My statement was more in response to this. I don't think this scenario covers the complexity of what constitutes what is "fair".

For instance, you have the 3rd jobber BLM who has been converted to a BLM main, and a single jobber BLM. The 3rd jobber BLM probably is a long time member and might have his 2 other jobs geared out by the LS but has strong attendence. Single jobber BLM is kind of new, but has shown strong attendence.

No matter who wins, drama-bitch fest will occur because both will have felt they "earned" the AF2 Hat. Points system helps minimize this if the members of the LS accept it.

Really the only two ways I see LS loot distrobution working is:

1) Nazi style. Leader(s) determine who gets what. Members must give full trust. Complainers get removed.

2) Points systems based on contributions only. As mentioned, accrue and spending values must be "fair" and timely. Remove job priorities. Job priorities allow the lot and run type members to receive rare gear which gets wasted when they leave for the next LS that can gear them.

First option is mostly about damage control after lotting assignments go out while option two is mostly upfront work.

The world is not only black and white, there's grey area too, it is possible the 3rd jobber BLM pass hat to new BLM member, if he has been in LS that long with tons of care from LS already, he wouldnt worry much about this hat lotting piority.

[Aodh]

Point systems are too complicated and require too much work to maintain and enforce.

Join a LS with people who can weight their own need for an item vs other members. If you're doing Dynamis and BLM Hat drops, somebody with BLM as their 3rd job should pass the hat to a Main job BLM without even thinking about any other alternatives.

IMO the added "fairness" you get out of a ponit system isn't nearly worth the trouble of implementing one.

It's too much trouble so it's not worth it? That's got to be one of the worst arguments possible... The fact that it takes time to manage is one disadvantage to a point system. But when you divide the responsibility of maintenance between 5-6 people on an open and transparent system like EqDKP, then it's not bad.

As we were implimenting out internal dynamis we had issues managing 'carry over' points right before a Xarcabard run. Long story short, after RDM hat dropped and someone else won when it was decided I wasn't allowed to lot, we got into a discussion. The other person who was NIN75 RDM75 (who retired their NIN) said that I didn't deserver the hat, because when we did LS events I was on WHM or SMN or BLM while he was always on RDM. Needless to say I was RDM for the next 4 Dynamis's because we didn't have any others. So how would you prioritize things when some people have only 1 job and others have 2, 3 or more and change when needed?

Anyways, the points were settled, I got my hat recently. The only thing that rubbed me the wrong way about that event was being told that since I'm not always on RDM I didn't disserve it, when I do change jobs as needed. I'm almost done my 6th job (WAR73), I'd probably never see a Ridill under your system, or anything else really...

[superfob]

The world is not only black and white, there's grey area too, it is possible the 3rd jobber BLM pass hat to new BLM member, if he has been in LS that long with tons of care from LS already, he wouldnt worry much about this hat lotting piority.

If everyone in the LS was willing to pass items for someone else, of course there would be no problems in any lotting system. Its too bad the people who play this game don't work like that. Only takes one idiot to ruin a perfectly fine LS.

[layoneil]

There's nothing to enforce. You can't argue with numbers sitting right in front of you.

sure you can, do you give points to people who might be afk for x amount of time, do you give points to people who might be 2 boxed for x amount of time?

do you let someone who hasn't been online for the last 2 months use points they accumulated before that and it seems likely they won't be online for the next 2 months?

Remove job priorities. Job priorities allow the lot and run type members to receive rare gear which gets wasted when they leave for the next LS that can gear them.

you can't remove job priorities, you just have to weigh them.

not having priorities allow the pure loot whore members to receive rare gear which gets wasted when they never ever play that job for any situation.

i think people should get gear even for jobs they don't use much, but they also shouldn't get it before people who are very active on those jobs.

It's too much trouble so it's not worth it? That's got to be one of the worst arguments possible...

that's the main reason why BG doesn't use points. if it's not kept perfectly it'll be broken, and no one has ever committed to putting in the effort to keep it perfectly.

i'd rather scoop water with my bare hands than use a glass that i know has a hole in the bottom of it.

[superfob]

i think people should get gear even for jobs they don't use much, but they also shouldn't get it before people who are very active on those jobs.

If they're very active then they would have the points for the said items. To me leechers are worst than loot whores. Someone with the points to waste on a job they rarely play shows that they more dedicated to helping the LS.

sure you can, do you give points to people who might be afk for x amount of time, do you give points to people who might be 2 boxed for x amount of time?

do you let someone who hasn't been online for the last 2 months use points they accumulated before that and it seems likely they won't be online for the next 2 months?

These are issues with a points system. You'd have to have your leaders to judge performance of afk members to see if they're worth keeping. The latter question is a tough one indeed. Personally I'd go ahead and say yes because the points obtained by that person is still a sign of value that they were to the LS in the past. At worst clear a person's points for inactivity for a long period of time.

[FFXIFlux]

There's nothing to enforce. You can't argue with numbers sitting right in front of you.

sure you can, do you give points to people who might be afk for x amount of time, do you give points to people who might be 2 boxed for x amount of time?

do you let someone who hasn't been online for the last 2 months use points they accumulated before that and it seems likely they won't be online for the next 2 months?

If they're AFK for 2 months, then they have 2 months less points. Simple. As for 2-boxing, give points to the player, not the character.

Remove job priorities. Job priorities allow the lot and run type members to receive rare gear which gets wasted when they leave for the next LS that can gear them.

you can't remove job priorities, you just have to weigh them.

not having priorities allow the pure loot whore members to receive rare gear which gets wasted when they never ever play that job for any situation.

i think people should get gear even for jobs they don't use much, but they also shouldn't get it before people who are very active on those jobs.

There is no written law that says you can't weigh jobs in a point system.

It's too much trouble so it's not worth it? That's got to be one of the worst arguments possible...

that's the main reason why BG doesn't use points. if it's not kept perfectly it'll be broken, and no one has ever committed to putting in the effort to keep it perfectly.

So you're saying you have a leader that attends 100% of events and has a perfect memory for who has attended previous events? If not then guess what, your system is more broken than a point system.

i'd rather scoop water with my bare hands than use a glass that i know has a hole in the bottom of it.

I'd rather cover the hole and scoop 5x the water you do.

[Krandor]

I dunno personally...

Outside of Ridill or Byakko's Haidate I basically never hear any bitching pertaining to items (though once we did have Aqua Legs drama... but that was a one time thing). I'm not gonna change our LSs entire system of drop distribution for just 2 items. Even if we operated off a points system there would still be people bitching I'm sure.

[NynJa]

they can bitch, but they have no argument.

[theo]

If taking five minutes to make an initial excel chart, then taking two-three minutes after any event to update points is too fucking complicated and time consuming, you'll have greater problems in life.

/Agree'd

My LS has one Excel document that tracks literally everything. Just find somebody in your LS who is competent in programming excel macros, and even the most complex attendance/credit/priority/whatever system because extremely simple.

It doesn't even take a genius to use the document, the only real effort involved was in the initial creation and occasional upkeep or debugging. This excel tracker has served us well for just about a year now.

Plus we keep all attendance hours posted on our forum, so theres no way for us officers to cheat the system without somebody catching us. Any LS-member with half a brain can go to our website, download the tracker, and review the contents to ensure that we are not cheating them.

The only people who bitch about the system are people who refuse to attend farming events and only come to events that benefit themselves. Most of those people end up leaving the LS out of frustration, which is fine by me :D

[Aodh]

It's too much trouble so it's not worth it? That's got to be one of the worst arguments possible...

that's the main reason why BG doesn't use points. if it's not kept perfectly it'll be broken, and no one has ever committed to putting in the effort to keep it perfectly.

i'd rather scoop water with my bare hands than use a glass that i know has a hole in the bottom of it.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say with your analogy... A closer one may be "I'd rather scoop water with my bare hands, than go to the kitchen and get a glass and open the fridge and pour a glass of Brita because that takes too much effort." And that is valid in of itself, yes it does take time and effort, but that doesn't mean the water is worse.

I actually created a database to do our LS's points and I did them alone for over 4 months. It took a lot of time and I burned out. We were able to switch to EqDKP which put it online and all the leaders enter in points for different events they attend. Our point are up to date within 10min following an event and the workload is divided so it's no longer a strain. Saying it takes time is a challenge of managing a point system, but it's not an argument that can wholy discredit the entire process.

[Jeryhn]

Late entering the topic, but...
Point systems blow. Divine rule ftw.

Under a point system, someone can come to an event, play their job to its most minimalistic fashion (or even do something incredibly gay like cast Diaga in Dynamis), and still get their points.

Divine rule keeps people accountable not only for showing up, but performing with excellence. People who make split-second clutch decisions that effect the success or failure of your alliance get noticed, and are rewarded the most often.*

*This is of course assuming that the leader of your linkshell are smart enough to avoid things like online relationships or favoritism. No system is perfect.

[Krandor]

Late entering the topic, but...
Point systems blow. Divine rule ftw.

Under a point system, someone can come to an event, play their job to its most minimalistic fashion (or even do something incredibly gay like cast Diaga in Dynamis), and still get their points.

Divine rule keeps people accountable not only for showing up, but performing with excellence. People who make split-second clutch decisions that effect the success or failure of your alliance get noticed, and are rewarded the most often.*

*This is of course assuming that the leader of your linkshell are smart enough to avoid things like online relationships or favoritism. No system is perfect.

Points systems also kind of fail to take into account someones attitudes or willingness to help out others. I'm more inclined to give xxx piece of gear to someone who is helpful outside of LS events then to someone who just xps 24/7 or sits in their moghouse when we don't have anything on the menu.