point systems

[Kross]

points suck, they turn the game into a huge line.

what's the fun in that?

[layoneil]

If they're very active then they would have the points for the said items.

If they're AFK for 2 months, then they have 2 months less points.

depends if you're on a flat point system or a bidding system or a mix. if it's a bidding system, you can be very active and not have more points than someone who's simply been around a really long time.

As for 2-boxing, give points to the player, not the character.

and you can tell at a King camp if someone is on two characters at the same time (especially one that you don't get claim).

There is no written law that says you can't weigh jobs in a point system.

i was just responding to the other guy, job priorities is important.

So you're saying you have a leader that attends 100% of events and has a perfect memory for who has attended previous events? If not then guess what, your system is more broken than a point system.

how do you know which is more or less broken? points or no points it's going to be subjective. and most of the time, our system is, when people are close, they lot against each other. whether or not people are "close" is also subjective.

I'd rather cover the hole and scoop 5x the water you do.

because the loot system your LS uses affects whether you get claim and whether stuff drops. obviously, the hole is too big to cover, if it was that easy it would've been done.

FFXI drop rates are too irregular for people to spend points all the time, that's the biggest problem.

If taking five minutes to make an initial excel chart, then taking two-three minutes after any event to update points is too fucking complicated and time consuming, you'll have greater problems in life.

believe it or not, it can be too complicated for some people, work IT at a large financial institution and talk to some of those people that have 7 figure salaries.

and it doesn't have to be too complicated for everyone for that to be a problem. when the people who can (is willing to) maintain that kind of system isn't able to be on for every event and the people that are on for every event have no desire/patience/ability to maintain the system, than the system isn't going to work.

Saying it takes time is a challenge of managing a point system, but it's not an argument that can wholy discredit the entire process.

i'm not wholly discrediting the process, but in some situations for some people, it just won't work.

and for some situations, it's not even necessary. are you all going to say your LS runs better than BtL because you have a points system and they don't?

[theo]

Under a point system, someone can come to an event, play their job to its most minimalistic fashion (or even do something incredibly gay like cast Diaga in Dynamis), and still get their points.

This is assuming your leaders are dumb enough to allow these people in the LS to begin with.

People like that get Dynamis suspensions in my LS. Party leaders are charged with making sure their party members are contributing, and not just standing in a corner casting refresh and stoneskin on themselves. A couple weeks of supension from dynamis is usually enough to make a person rethink their attitude... or sometimes they just throw a fit and leave, which as I previously stated, is fine by me.

[theo]

Under a point system, someone can come to an event, play their job to its most minimalistic fashion (or even do something incredibly gay like cast Diaga in Dynamis), and still get their points.

This is assuming your leaders are dumb enough to allow these people in the LS to begin with.

People like that get Dynamis suspensions in my LS. Party leaders are charged with making sure their party members are contributing, and not just standing in a corner casting refresh and stoneskin on themselves. A couple weeks of supension from dynamis is usually enough to make a person rethink their attitude... or sometimes they just throw a fit and leave, which as I previously stated, is fine by me.

[NynJa]

believe it or not, it can be too complicated for some people, work IT at a large financial institution and talk to some of those people that have 7 figure salaries.

and it doesn't have to be too complicated for everyone for that to be a problem. when the people who can (is willing to) maintain that kind of system isn't able to be on for every event and the people that are on for every event have no desire/patience/ability to maintain the system, than the system isn't going to work.

This isnt a multimillion dollar, international company dealing with 1000+++ employees per site, having to manage the salaries of said people, dealing with fractions and exponents and taxes and deductions and what not.

This is recordkeeping in small basic numbers of anywhere between 30 to 60 people.

[Aodh]

Under a point system, someone can come to an event, play their job to its most minimalistic fashion (or even do something incredibly gay like cast Diaga in Dynamis), and still get their points.

Divine rule keeps people accountable not only for showing up, but performing with excellence. People who make split-second clutch decisions that effect the success or failure of your alliance get noticed, and are rewarded the most often.*

*This is of course assuming that the leader of your linkshell are smart enough to avoid things like online relationships or favoritism. No system is perfect.

How do you avoid liking one person and avoid hating another? What if the person you really hate for xxxxx reason is also the person who contributes the most? Biasd decisions for the most part are uncontrolable because you can find rational to explain any decision you feel is right. The game is mainly a social experiance, leaders can't be expected not to make friends with people in the linkshell. Nor can the be expected to befriend everyone in the linkshell. So they're inherently biasd.

And if you have someone who consistantly slacks off and does stupid shit like Diaga in dynamis then you have a problem with idiots not being ejected from the linkshell, not a problem with the loot distribution system.

[yayajax]

People like that get Dynamis suspensions in my LS. Party leaders are charged with making sure their party members are contributing, and not just standing in a corner casting refresh and stoneskin on themselves. A couple weeks of supension from dynamis is usually enough to make a person rethink their attitude... or sometimes they just throw a fit and leave, which as I previously stated, is fine by me.

Believe it or not, there are people who think they are doing it right, like melee RDM or nuke-only RDM, I have seen a lot of those. They never understand what's their job responsibility is, no matter how many times you talk in /tells, or in your case the event suspense.
If they start up wrong, they keeps going the wrong way.

[yayajax]

How do you avoid liking one person and avoid hating another? What if the person you really hate for xxxxx reason is also the person who contributes the most? Biasd decisions for the most part are uncontrolable because you can find rational to explain any decision you feel is right. The game is mainly a social experiance, leaders can't be expected not to make friends with people in the linkshell. Nor can the be expected to befriend everyone in the linkshell. So they're inherently biasd.

And if you have someone who consistantly slacks off and does stupid shit like Diaga in dynamis then you have a problem with idiots not being ejected from the linkshell, not a problem with the loot distribution system.

I believe there wont be only 1 single leader decide everything. It is better have multiple leaders involve drops distrubiution.

[layoneil]

This isnt a multimillion dollar, international company dealing with 1000+++ employees per site.

This is recordkeeping in small basic numbers of anywhere between 30 to 60 people.

it doesn't matter how many people are there, you can be a pretty damn successful doctor, lawyer or whatever with a few assisstants.

some people hate bookkeeping and won't do it, they'll be forgetful, they pay other people to do it IRL.

"you'll have greater problems in life." is simply an invalid statement when the most successful people in the world pretty much never deal with this kind of stuff.

it's more an issue of people not wanting to do it than people not being capable. sure i can wake up at 5 every morning but what's the point?

How do you avoid liking one person and avoid hating another? What if the person you really hate for xxxxx reason is also the person who contributes the most?

you don't. try to avoid a total dictatorship by having decision makers that have varying friends so they can call each other out.

[NynJa]

This isnt a multimillion dollar, international company dealing with 1000+++ employees per site.

This is recordkeeping in small basic numbers of anywhere between 30 to 60 people.

it doesn't matter how many people are there, you can be a pretty damn successful doctor, lawyer or whatever with a few assisstants.

some people hate bookkeeping and won't do it, they'll be forgetful, they pay other people to do it IRL.

"you'll have greater problems in life." is simply an invalid statement when the most successful people in the world pretty much never deal with this kind of stuff.

it's more an issue of people not wanting to do it than people not being capable. sure i can wake up at 5 every morning but what's the point?

Sorry, you're right, not everyone is computer savvy...this is only the 21st century. Basic excel functions such as =SUM(C3:C255) arent exactly difficult to learn though.

But if a leader cant devote a tops of 8 minutes to making things more manageable, so ppl know where they stand, then I dunno what to say. Takes 8 minutes for 2+ people to argue over why they deserve the Ridill, only takes 5 minutes for it to wind up autolotting to a smn.

[Jeryhn]

How do you avoid liking one person and avoid hating another? What if the person you really hate for xxxxx reason is also the person who contributes the most?

No one said you had to. Some of the biggest contributors in my linkshell are some of the worst assholes Cerberus server has ever seen, while some are just peachy.

Biasd decisions for the most part are uncontrolable because you can find rational to explain any decision you feel is right. The game is mainly a social experiance, leaders can't be expected not to make friends with people in the linkshell. Nor can the be expected to befriend everyone in the linkshell. So they're inherently biasd.

This is true, but you're under the assumption that a leader has to justify his decisions to people other than himself and the other leaders. Obviously, the best decision is made by a group of leaders that people are willing to follow, not just any one person.

If people don't like repeatedly bad decisions that show obvious favoritism or corruption, they leave. If people would rather have solidarity (lol) of a points system, they're free to choose a linkshell that deals with points.

And if you have someone who consistantly slacks off and does stupid shit like Diaga in dynamis then you have a problem with idiots not being ejected from the linkshell, not a problem with the loot distribution system.

But under a points system, doing something dumb once that costs you the alliance the win for whatever you're doing doesn't really matter. It doesn't have to be done repeatedly -- are you going to kick one person out of your linkshell because they accidently casted Diaga? Probably not.

Mistakes can, and should be, punished.

People like that get Dynamis suspensions in my LS. Party leaders are charged with making sure their party members are contributing, and not just standing in a corner casting refresh and stoneskin on themselves.

This is a perfect example of a punishment. However, the person who made the mistake could still be a good player, albeit able to fuck up. I would rather have the extra body in Dynamis willing to work their way back up into good standing than sitting in timeout in the corner as an hourglass mule.

More or less, this type of punishment in this quote is similar to suspending a bad kid from school -- grats, he obviously doesn't want to be there anyway, way to reinforce good behavior.

[superfob]

depends if you're on a flat point system or a bidding system or a mix. if it's a bidding system, you can be very active and not have more points than someone who's simply been around a really long time.

I don't agree. Its not the system's job to monitor how members spend their points in a flat or bidding system. Don't put all your eggs in one basket I suppose. Anyways, if the very active guy is willing to bid all his points for XXX item, he can't complain about not having more points than the 2 months inactive guy.

Btw, I fucking hate Social Security. I'll never see a penny of that money. People need to learn how to manage their own money.

[Norelco]

There's nothing to enforce. You can't argue with numbers sitting right in front of you.

sure you can, do you give points to people who might be afk for x amount of time, do you give points to people who might be 2 boxed for x amount of time?

do you let someone who hasn't been online for the last 2 months use points they accumulated before that and it seems likely they won't be online for the next 2 months?

AFK how? During Sky runs we're constantly killing things or moving around. In between Kings windows of course people are going to AFK. It's quite obvious when someone isn't pulling their weight, and if that is noticed then they will be D2'd. Most of the people in my current shell have been friends for over 2 years, we know they wouldn't dick us.

As to your second question, it doesn't work like that. We have a tiered system that takes the points you have accumulated and that is divided by the total number of points someone could possibly have if they attended every hour of every single event. We have 5 tiers, the highest tier being 100% attendance. If someone disappears for 2 months their average will drop, so someone with the same amount of points as this person but who has been attending events more recently will get the drop.

[Septimus]

How do you avoid liking one person and avoid hating another? What if the person you really hate for xxxxx reason is also the person who contributes the most?.

It is fairly simple, if you cannot be impartial when making decisions then you are not qualified to be a leader.

[Aodh]

Saying it takes time is a challenge of managing a point system, but it's not an argument that can wholy discredit the entire process.

i'm not wholly discrediting the process, but in some situations for some people, it just won't work.

and for some situations, it's not even necessary. are you all going to say your LS runs better than BtL because you have a points system and they don't?

My opinion is that a point system is more fair because it recognizes the only tangable factors, which are attendance and specific contributions (Like farming a Sky pop item). But I've never said that 'my system is better than yours', just that you can't say things like "In some situations for some people it just won't work" without providing examples or reasons as to why. I definitly think that a properly functioning point system is the most fair to the majority because it doesn't rely on individual bias and opinions, just contribution and the member's percieved/relative value of items.

I believe there wont be only 1 single leader decide everything. It is better have multiple leaders involve drops distrubiution.

I've never been a part of that system, I couldn't imagine a thread in leaders forum as to "Who gets what" with every Ex item explicitly called out. So it would only be a decision based on the leaders there at that time depending on what drops. It personally think it would be hard to come to a consensus as to who gets what within 5min without it being mainly one (possibly two) people(s) decisions.

[theo]

People like that get Dynamis suspensions in my LS. Party leaders are charged with making sure their party members are contributing, and not just standing in a corner casting refresh and stoneskin on themselves.

This is a perfect example of a punishment. However, the person who made the mistake could still be a good player, albeit able to fuck up. I would rather have the extra body in Dynamis willing to work their way back up into good standing than sitting in timeout in the corner as an hourglass mule.

Thats a good point... an alternative punishiment though could be to temporarily remove lotting rights while still allowing them to attend.

But then to many people, lotting rights in a city zone pales in comparison to the simple fact that they are attending and thus earning attendance points, so in that case allowing them to attend is still not enough of a punishment imo.

At any rate, we would certainly have a "talk" with the person to explain why/how he can improve his performance, its not like we just toss punishments around without explanation lol.

Meh. If the system works for your LS good for you, points or no points, punishment or no punishment.

[Norelco]

Points systems also kind of fail to take into account someones attitudes or willingness to help out others. I'm more inclined to give xxx piece of gear to someone who is helpful outside of LS events then to someone who just xps 24/7 or sits in their moghouse when we don't have anything on the menu.

I understand what you're saying Kran, but I believe in helping out a linkshell mate because they're in my shell and they're hopefully my friend and because it's the right thing to do, and not because I think it will help officers make a decision in my favor.

That's why I also disagree and reject the notion that point systems don't take into account people's attitudes. If a person is attending every event, and is obviously an unbearable asshole, he'll get kicked from the shell before he'll have a chance to lot on anything.

[theo]

Hey you ninja'd your post :O

More or less, this type of punishment in this quote is similar to suspending a bad kid from school -- grats, he obviously doesn't want to be there anyway, way to reinforce good behavior.

The key difference here is that he is obviously coming to dyna for a reason, he wants loot. Kids love getting suspsended from school because they don't go to school crossing their fingers for a Deulist's Chapeau

[Jeryhn]

Hey you ninja'd your post :O

More or less, this type of punishment in this quote is similar to suspending a bad kid from school -- grats, he obviously doesn't want to be there anyway, way to reinforce good behavior.

The key difference here is that he is obviously coming to dyna for a reason, he wants loot. Kids love getting suspsended from school because they don't go to school crossing their fingers for a Deulist's Chapeau

But what about the guy that already has one?

[Gatsby]

Why does this sound like the beginnings of another Meat v. Sushi, War vs. Mnk vs. Nin and COP/ToAU arguement?