point systems

[theo]

Hey you ninja'd your post :O

More or less, this type of punishment in this quote is similar to suspending a bad kid from school -- grats, he obviously doesn't want to be there anyway, way to reinforce good behavior.

The key difference here is that he is obviously coming to dyna for a reason, he wants loot. Kids love getting suspsended from school because they don't go to school crossing their fingers for a Deulist's Chapeau

But what about the guy that already has one?

We don't give snow AF to slackers to its a moot point

But seriusly though, what kind if punishment would you suggest then?

[superfob]

Why does this sound like the beginnings of another Meat v. Sushi, War vs. Mnk vs. Nin and COP/ToAU arguement?

Because there's only one right way.

[Norelco]

Why does this sound like the beginnings of another Meat v. Sushi, War vs. Mnk vs. Nin and COP/ToAU arguement?

I don't mind people having differing opinions, but I do mind the idiots who say something sucks without giving any reasons why they think it sucks, and even if they do provide reasons, they provide shitty ones.

They're two equally viable philosophies.

[Aodh]

How do you avoid liking one person and avoid hating another? What if the person you really hate for xxxxx reason is also the person who contributes the most?.

It is fairly simple, if you cannot be impartial when making decisions then you are not qualified to be a leader.

If you can be in a linkshell every day and not form any emotional attachments, then you're qualified to be a Monk. Empathy, sympathy are human behaviours which will affect your decisions.

Hypothetical Situation:
Two RDMs, one who leveled RDM when the game came out and has been trying for a Duelist Chapeau for 2 years. They've leveled other jobs and infrequently come on RDM anymore because it's not as needed, but it's their "Main" job and their passion. Another RDM who has it as their main job and only job leveled. Both have been active for months and only joined a week apart. RDM hat drops, based on the information here only, who would get it?

I don't mind people having differing opinions, but I do mind the idiots who say something sucks without giving any reasons why they think it sucks, and even if they do provide reasons, they provide shitty ones.

They're two equally viable philosophies.

Agreed. I'm trying to understand how and why people can operate under the systems. I said from the start, it's a matter of what the linkshell accepts and agree's on. The only answers people are giving is "it takes too much effort" or "It doesn't work" without presenting their justification as to why.

[SephYuyX]

Hypothetical Situation:
Two RDMs, one who leveled RDM when the game came out and has been trying for a Duelist Chapeau for 2 years. They've leveled other jobs and infrequently come on RDM anymore because it's not as needed, but it's their "Main" job and their passion. Another RDM who has it as their main job and only job leveled. Both have been active for months and only joined a week apart. RDM hat drops, based on the information here only, who would get it?

Second RDM.

Edit: Ehh, Theo's answer is better, let them dual lot. But if it had to go to one or the other, id say 2nd.

[theo]

Hypothetical Situation:
Two RDMs, one who leveled RDM when the game came out and has been trying for a Duelist Chapeau for 2 years. They've leveled other jobs and infrequently come on RDM anymore because it's not as needed, but it's their "Main" job and their passion. Another RDM who has it as their main job and only job leveled. Both have been active for months and only joined a week apart. RDM hat drops, based on the information here only, who would get it?

Sounds like they both deserve it, why not just let both of them lot? You don't necessarily have to choose one person. Let luck decide.

[Yeargdribble]

If you have corrupt leader you're fucked. If you add a point system with corrupt leaders it will just be a corrupt point system. Been there, done that.

It's much better having sacks that don't have their heads in their asses and can actually pay attention. Points and attendance can't rightfully decide everything. The big problem with points would be people coming in, accumulating points, lotting an item, disappearing.

The sacks in my LS know me, they know that I attended a lot of functions and help a lot, even in areas where I have nothing left to gain. Basically they know I'm gonna stick around. It doesn't take a genius to sniff out the kind of person that will disappear the moment they get everything.

Those people can show up to every single event for a month or so and get some big item they want and disappear. Meanwhile another person who can't be there all the time but is there any time they can might get screwed on said item. The latter member is obviously more reliable and has been a longer term member but falls behind in points very quickly to an eager new person that mentions "Item of Uber +1" which they are after every time they get a chance.




Our sacks take note of attendance and there are invisible points that only they see to help make decisions. Beyond just the numbers they take into account the types of personalities people have and if they cause drama in LS. This has an automatic way of strengthening our core group while quickly weeding out the whiny leeches. Anyone that puts forward the effort gets the items they want and they generally get them pretty fast.

It's not hard to have a short sack meeting before every event to discuss drops (which they do). There would never be a quibble over who would get the Ridill AFTER it dropped. Things like that would be and have been decided ahead of time. Everyone knows roughly who is next in line for an item, though it is subject to change if they start skipping events regularly.

[FFXIFlux]

If taking five minutes to make an initial excel chart, then taking two-three minutes after any event to update points is too fucking complicated and time consuming, you'll have greater problems in life.

believe it or not, it can be too complicated for some people, work IT at a large financial institution and talk to some of those people that have 7 figure salaries.

That comparison is laughable. Read the post 4 previous to yours. There are public DKP (dragon-kill-points) systems out there that even an idiot with a 0.7 figure salary or an idiot with a 7 figure one can figure out.

and it doesn't have to be too complicated for everyone for that to be a problem. when the people who can (is willing to) maintain that kind of system isn't able to be on for every event and the people that are on for every event have no desire/patience/ability to maintain the system, than the system isn't going to work.

And yet the system works for the majority of guilds across the majority of MMORPGs. Your "if this" "then it won't work" is spurious. It's a proven, working system in common practice for many years. You may as well argue that if lightning strikes a substation, people will lose power, so we shouldn't use electricity.

If FFA (free for all), NBG (need before greed), or loot council work for you, go for it. Simpler methods like those can work very well when you have a small number of static people. Our membership is neither small nor static and we need a point system.

[superfob]

Let them both lot, or give it to the higher points guy.

I really hate how having multiple jobs works against your favor, especially if you level jobs that your LS really needs. This of course comes from someone who's aiming for a Maat's Cap, but seriously its retarded. Take for instance the example above, the RDM w/ multiple jobs leveled sacrificed his passion for RDM to help the LS out (he's probably SMN lol). Why is he punished because he's allowed to lot SMN type gear?

For some more hypothetical scenarios, how about adding a 3rd guy, whose NIN main, but decides he likes RDM the best and is gearing for it. He still comes to LS events as NIN cause its pimped out. He also attends 10x more events than the other two. Out of those 3 who gets it?

[layoneil]

Sorry, you're right, not everyone is computer savvy...this is only the 21st century. Basic excel functions such as =SUM(C3:C255) arent exactly difficult to learn though.

no, but what part of some people don't care enough to learn it do you not understand. i don't even have Excel installed in all of my home PCs because i use it all day at work.

But if a leader cant devote a tops of 8 minutes to making things more manageable, so ppl know where they stand, then I dunno what to say.

you don't really need points to tell people where they stand.

Takes 8 minutes for 2+ people to argue over why they deserve the Ridill, only takes 5 minutes for it to wind up autolotting to a smn.

your assumption that any LS that doesn't use points means that every item is decided at the time it drops is incorrect. like i said, FFXI drops very rarely, i can tell you right now every person that will lot on Duelist Chapeau if it drops on our next Dynamis-Xarcabard. and i can tell you the next person to lot if all of those people happen not to be here.

you don't need points to be prepared.

Anyways, if the very active guy is willing to bid all his points for XXX item, he can't complain about not having more points than the 2 months inactive guy.

you don't have to bid all your points, you just need to bid all the points of the next guy+1.

As to your second question, it doesn't work like that. We have a tiered system that takes the points you have accumulated and that is divided by the total number of points someone could possibly have if they attended every hour of every single event. We have 5 tiers, the highest tier being 100% attendance.

you don't need points to put people on tiers. how unobservant do people have to be for them to absolutely need numbers to tell the difference between a Tier 1 member and a Tier 4 member?

we have a 4 tier system pretty much since we don't have anyone with 100% attendance we don't need that tier.

AFK how? During Sky runs we're constantly killing things or moving around. In between Kings windows of course people are going to AFK.

sometimes people are afk through king windows. sometimes people are afk for a pull or two in dynamis or a few Aern kills in Sea. people do occassionally need to do that for legit reasons and some people do abuse it sometimes.

I've never been a part of that system, I couldn't imagine a thread in leaders forum as to "Who gets what" with every Ex item explicitly called out.

the same way that i couldn't imagine a point system that would work for my LS. but what you're saying is basically exactly how we work, whether you can imagine it or not.

[Dezzimal]

More or less, this type of punishment in this quote is similar to suspending a bad kid from school -- grats, he obviously doesn't want to be there anyway, way to reinforce good behavior.

There are two basic types of dynamis shells.

#1 - The HNM Shell. They do everything, and this includes dynamis. This is where you'd get someone who hates dynamis and wouldn't mind being told not to come to it. What you'd do in this situation is penalize them elsewhere in he HNMLS.

#2 - Dynamis only LS. In this situation you'd kick them, why did they join in the first place if they don't want to be there?

[Jeryhn]

Hypothetical Situation:
Two RDMs, one who leveled RDM when the game came out and has been trying for a Duelist Chapeau for 2 years. They've leveled other jobs and infrequently come on RDM anymore because it's not as needed, but it's their "Main" job and their passion. Another RDM who has it as their main job and only job leveled. Both have been active for months and only joined a week apart. RDM hat drops, based on the information here only, who would get it?

The RDM that is used more often will get the hat. It doesn't make sense to give an item to a person who isn't going to use it.

You haven't really presented us with any sort of moral dilemma here.

We don't give snow AF to slackers to its a moot point

But seriusly though, what kind if punishment would you suggest then?

You just said it. Don't give the idiots the useful pieces of relic armor.

If they don't wise up, they'll either improve or leave, and either situation benefits the linkshell as a whole.

[Gatsby]

My only grief with letting a council decide matters is that no one can be expected to be on FFXI 24/7. So its really hard to know whose done work for the Linkshell and who will benefit the most from getting the item. One incident that happened to me when I first started in the HNM scene really soured me to letting a council decide.

I noticed that many people were camping Behe and asked if someone could get the tod so we could camp it the next day. We don't get the exact tod but its close enough for our purposes. I get to the camp FW with selected others of the LS (non council members if you wish to keep using that term) and camp for 6 windows. Only after we get claim of KB do we get people coming to help. (preface: I'm RDM main). The LS is lucky enough to get a W Mask and M leg to drop, because of the rules of that LS I'm forced to lot against 2 other RDMs. One that has not helped the LS much as RDM and goes NIN more often than not and a somewhat new member in the LS.

One issue of concern with job priority systems (if someone can help clarify an issue for me) , what happens if a member spends most of their time XPing their new job to get on the priority system instead of spending their time camping or farming pop items. Do you allow the XP whore to lot in front of the person who has spent their time with the LS?

This has always been one topic of concern for me.

[Yeargdribble]

Let them both lot, or give it to the higher points guy.

I really hate how having multiple jobs works against your favor, especially if you level jobs that your LS really needs. This of course comes from someone who's aiming for a Maat's Cap, but seriously its retarded. Take for instance the example above, the RDM w/ multiple jobs leveled sacrificed his passion for RDM to help the LS out (he's probably SMN lol). Why is he punished because he's allowed to lot SMN type gear?

For some more hypothetical scenarios, how about adding a 3rd guy, whose NIN main, but decides he likes RDM the best and is gearing for it. He still comes to LS events as NIN cause its pimped out. He also attends 10x more events than the other two. Out of those 3 who gets it?

The 3rd guy would get the item in my shell. If he's helping the LS a lot and isn't a jerk who is planning to run off with gear he will definitely get it. We have a WAR main in our LS who has SMN and NIN leveled. He is often called upon to go SMN to events, but he wasn't overlooked for and Osode when he wanted one. His contributions and good attitude matter more.

You might say, "Well his Osode doesn't help the LS if he only comes SMN!"

To that I would say, giving it to a NIN/RNG/MNK who doesn't show up helps even less. I'd rather him have an Osode that he rarely gets to use for events than give it to some undeserving prick who has the 'right' job and only that job.

[FFXIFlux]

Hypothetical Situation:
Two RDMs, one who leveled RDM when the game came out and has been trying for a Duelist Chapeau for 2 years. They've leveled other jobs and infrequently come on RDM anymore because it's not as needed, but it's their "Main" job and their passion. Another RDM who has it as their main job and only job leveled. Both have been active for months and only joined a week apart. RDM hat drops, based on the information here only, who would get it?

The RDM that is used more often will get the hat. It doesn't make sense to give an item to a person who isn't going to use it.

You haven't really presented us with any sort of moral dilemma here.

It's there, you just don't see it. You've just penalized someone for leveling jobs other than RDM. The person who is more useful to your linkshell, more active in FFXI, and works at least as hard for your linkshell deserves loot less because of it? BRILLIANT! By your stunning peice of logic someone with 10 jobs leveled will probably NEVER GET ANYTHING. Awesome!

[FFXIFlux]

your assumption that any LS that doesn't use points means that every item is decided at the time it drops is incorrect. like i said, FFXI drops very rarely, i can tell you right now every person that will lot on Duelist Chapeau if it drops on our next Dynamis-Xarcabard. and i can tell you the next person to lot if all of those people happen not to be here.

you don't need points to be prepared.

Then don't use points. For us we could have up to 60 people at an event. There are 15 AF2s, not just duelist chapeau, and thats just Xarcabard. We go to Windurst and 5 peices of AF2 drop per hour. You can seriously keep track of lotting for that? Good luck. Even with the "pick one job" method we still ended up with sub 1-month members having 3 items and then quitting while 5+ month people had 1 item. It simply does not work for us. Again, if it works for you, have fun with it, it doesn't work for everyone, in fact, it doesn't work for most people, which is why point systems are so common.

[Yeargdribble]

My only grief with letting a council decide matters is that no one can be expected to be on FFXI 24/7. So its really hard to know whose done work for the Linkshell and who will benefit the most from getting the item. One incident that happened to me when I first started in the HNM scene really soured me to letting a council decide.

I guess this isn't much of a problem for my shell. There will almost always been at least one sack on who is aware of what is going on. The sacks communicate fairly well and if one knows about something, they all know. Large items that could be potential drama fodder almost always involve all sacks.


As for someone not showing up and trying to get on the job priority list by leveling a job, that's the reason we do it the way we do. It's too easy to level up the 'right' job to get gear while ignoring the needs of the shell.


Ninja Edit:

It's there, you just don't see it. You've just penalized someone for leveling jobs other than RDM. The person who is more useful to your linkshell, more active in FFXI, and works at least as hard for your linkshell deserves loot less because of it? BRILLIANT! By your stunning peice of logic someone with 10 jobs leveled will probably NEVER GET ANYTHING. Awesome!

I have to agree with this 100%.

[Jeryhn]

One incident that happened to me when I first started in the HNM scene really soured me to letting a council decide.

I noticed that many people were camping Behe and asked if someone could get the tod so we could camp it the next day. We don't get the exact tod but its close enough for our purposes. I get to the camp FW with selected others of the LS (non council members if you wish to keep using that term) and camp for 6 windows. Only after we get claim of KB do we get people coming to help. (preface: I'm RDM main). The LS is lucky enough to get a W Mask and M leg to drop, because of the rules of that LS I'm forced to lot against 2 other RDMs. One that has not helped the LS much as RDM and goes NIN more often than not and a somewhat new member in the LS.

Bear in mind that you also said you were new to the whole HNM thing. That's two new members lotting against one older member. If anything, the decision to let all three of you lot against each other was a good one.

One issue of concern with job priority systems (if someone can help clarify an issue for me) , what happens if a member spends most of their time XPing their new job to get on the priority system instead of spending their time camping or farming pop items. Do you allow the XP whore to lot in front of the person who has spent their time with the LS?

Obviously not.

You've just penalized someone for leveling jobs other than RDM.

So? Using all of the information, both members have RDM leveled, both put in the same amount of effort into the linkshell, both joined at nearly the same time, and one uses RDM far more than the other. The choice is obvious.

That being said, this guy who shows up as WAR all the time, despite loving RDM to pieces, will probably get a Ridill out of it one day. He has no room for complaint.

[Aodh]

I've never been a part of that system, I couldn't imagine a thread in leaders forum as to "Who gets what" with every Ex item explicitly called out.

the same way that i couldn't imagine a point system that would work for my LS. but what you're saying is basically exactly how we work, whether you can imagine it or not.

>.<;; That was an opportunity to present how your linkshell managed the decisions as to who gets what EX under a fast timeframe.

If you're saying you do have the list... wow. People are arguing that it's too much effort to maintain a 1+1-1 point system, but it's not to keep track of everyone's jobs and levels and discuss and set priorities on the 100ish EX items that drop off every land king, sky god and in dynamis...

I'll explicitly say it since I'm not getting any counter arguments beyond "It won't work". How (or by what process) does your linkshell operate without a point system to determine who gets what items? (Is there a list, is there a job matrix, is it discussed each camp, or after items drop, who makes the decision, how many people collaborate in deciding, etc...)

[rydiu]

I agree sorta, but when a WAR only camps faf for Ridill and the BST camps everything, I would hope the leaders would know they have an item douchebag in their presence anbd give it to the BST. Im not being biased as a BST myself, loool I realize that I have little to no chance it ever getting one (till I raise my war >.> but a leader should be able to reconize who is more deserving in this case. Id give a novio earring to a WHM if he showed up to every single camp and will, then to a BLM that shows up once a month (and all the other BLM have one).

Leaders should be able to reconize peoples potentials, and have an eye for item douchebaggary.

Excellent point... and what BST in their right mind wouldn't level war if they had a ridill? loll

After I got my ridill and e.bod it took about 6 weeks to get war from 5 to 75... so much for potential... and the best part was when I dinged 55 I had spampage ready and able to cap great axe at each level!

Its not a matter of JobA > JobB its a matter of player quality...

Btw, love how nakama and ultima members come on for their first post and try to derail the thread but constantly fail lol.....I know ya'all love to hate me because I got insane gear, but its the truth I speak!