point systems

[Norelco]

As to your second question, it doesn't work like that. We have a tiered system that takes the points you have accumulated and that is divided by the total number of points someone could possibly have if they attended every hour of every single event. We have 5 tiers, the highest tier being 100% attendance.

you don't need points to put people on tiers. how unobservant do people have to be for them to absolutely need numbers to tell the difference between a Tier 1 member and a Tier 4 member?

we have a 4 tier system pretty much since we don't have anyone with 100% attendance we don't need that tier.

AFK how? During Sky runs we're constantly killing things or moving around. In between Kings windows of course people are going to AFK.

sometimes people are afk through king windows. sometimes people are afk for a pull or two in dynamis or a few Aern kills in Sea. people do occassionally need to do that for legit reasons and some people do abuse it sometimes.

We use the points to calculate the tiers. It takes the guesswork out calculating tiers for 50+ members, it has nothing to do with being observant. It's pretty much all automated.

I also realize people go AFK for legitimate reasons. If a person can tell an officer what their reason was without the officer's bullshit detector going off, then it's all good. If for some reason we claimed a king and a person wasn't moving, they'd probably either get kicked or their points for that event would get thrown out. :D

[Gatsby]

Bear in mind that you also said you were new to the whole HNM thing. That's two new members lotting against one older member. If anything, the decision to let all three of you lot against each other was a good one.

I was new to the HNM scene but with the LS for a few months at this point. (I've ignored counting Sky as a true HNM). This was also the first (and I believe only) King HNM that this LS killed.

Gatsby wrote:
One issue of concern with job priority systems (if someone can help clarify an issue for me) , what happens if a member spends most of their time XPing their new job to get on the priority system instead of spending their time camping or farming pop items. Do you allow the XP whore to lot in front of the person who has spent their time with the LS?


Obviously not.

How do you deal with the drama surrounding lot rights. I'm curious because I see this possibly being a problem later on in life and I'd rather be prepared for it now. If you could, provide the details on anything you specifically regarding this.

As for someone not showing up and trying to get on the job priority list by leveling a job, that's the reason we do it the way we do. It's too easy to level up the 'right' job to get gear while ignoring the needs of the shell.

Can you point me to the details of these rules?

[loial]

For the RDM example:
If they both put in the same effort, they should both lot - whether or not one is "main RDM" and the other is "sometimes RDM." Well, that is assuming that the "sometimes RDM" didn't just get some big-ticket item for another job recently.

If any other course of action is taken, it penalizes those that level other jobs.

Honestly, it doesn't matter how many jobs an individual has. It should be 100% about the effort put in. Once you start giving items to those that do less effort but get more out of it, you set a horrible example. That means that people that could use it the most can start not showing up to events where none of their gear drops. That's a surefire way to fuck up your LS.

I'm sure people will disagree, but a BST that goes to nearly all events should get the Ridill over the WAR that only goes to Fafnir. That Ridill will be hitting more mobs in the hands of the BST over time than the WAR. If anything, it will make that WAR get off his ass and show up to other things. And for those that say, "Well, WAR is a much better fit for a Ridill" - undoubtedly true. But, when was the last time that your LS said, "Gee, thank god our WAR had that Ridill, otherwise we wouldn't have been able to kill <insert HNM here>."

[Aodh]

You've just penalized someone for leveling jobs other than RDM.

So? Using all of the information, both members have RDM leveled, both put in the same amount of effort into the linkshell, both joined at nearly the same time, and one uses RDM far more than the other. The choice is obvious.

I included one element that you missed. It's the fact that the LS needed that person on another job, not that the person decided to come on that other job. What good is having an alliance of RDMs when you really needed a WHM, or NIN, or PLD etc... You have in fact peanalized the person who considers themself to be RDM Main because they decided to be more helpful/useful to the LS to be on another job.

[FFXIFlux]

You've just penalized someone for leveling jobs other than RDM.

So? Using all of the information, both members have RDM leveled, both put in the same amount of effort into the linkshell, both joined at nearly the same time, and one uses RDM far more than the other. The choice is obvious.

That being said, this guy who shows up as WAR all the time, despite loving RDM to pieces, will probably get a Ridill out of it one day. He has no room for complaint.

So what you're saying is that when the linkshell does something and needs a WAR and a RDM, the person with both WAR and RDM leveled should refuse to come as WAR because if he comes WAR he'll be forced to take loot he doesn't want? Yeah, I can see that working perfectly. So the person with just RDM leveled is happy as anything and the person with multiple jobs leveled tells your linkshell to go fuck themselves and quits to join a linkshell that isn't retarded.

[Krandor]

Points systems also kind of fail to take into account someones attitudes or willingness to help out others. I'm more inclined to give xxx piece of gear to someone who is helpful outside of LS events then to someone who just xps 24/7 or sits in their moghouse when we don't have anything on the menu.

I understand what you're saying Kran, but I believe in helping out a linkshell mate because they're in my shell and they're hopefully my friend and because it's the right thing to do, and not because I think it will help officers make a decision in my favor.

That's why I also disagree and reject the notion that point systems don't take into account people's attitudes. If a person is attending every event, and is obviously an unbearable asshole, he'll get kicked from the shell before he'll have a chance to lot on anything.

How so? I'm still in my LS

[Yeargdribble]

As for someone not showing up and trying to get on the job priority list by leveling a job, that's the reason we do it the way we do. It's too easy to level up the 'right' job to get gear while ignoring the needs of the shell.

Can you point me to the details of these rules?

While we would take into account this memeber's long term attendance and such, it will hurt them a lot to skip events for a month to get a priority job to the top. We don't use an absolutely job priority system though there is some rough prioritization. We would give Seiryu's Kote to a NIN or RNG who had slightly less time investment rather than give them to a BRD with a ton of time investment that just wanted them to finish the set.

If it is blatantly obvious that someone just wants a particular peice of gear to have it, and therefore they level up a job to get it, we will notice and they won't get it very readily. This actually happened fairly recently when a THF stopped coming for nearly 2 months and leveled SAM to 75 and expects to get an Osode quickly. It won't happen that way. They will have to show up to events and re-establish themselves so to speak, before geting anything like that.

[Dezzimal]

3 things a leader needs to go through when determining loot orders:

1. Is this item useful to any of the jobs that this person has? If it is a vanity item (crimson body, gaiters) can they equip it?

2. Is this person more valuable to the shell than the others who would be eligible for the item?

3. Examine the loot history. You don't give a novio earring to a WAR, THF, BLU, BLM, MNK, WHM 75 who has Osode, Nobles, Adaman Hauberk, Black Belt, 3/5 Shura, Full Homam, Gaiters, full relic for WAR and MNK, unless he's that incredibly indispensible that he deserves it.

[Yeargdribble]

3 things a leader needs to go through when determining loot orders:

1. Is this item useful to any of the jobs that this person has? If it is a vanity item (crimson body, gaiters) can they equip it?

2. Is this person more valuable to the shell than the others who would be eligible for the item?

3. Examine the loot history. You don't give a novio earring to a WAR, THF, BLU, BLM, MNK, WHM 75 who has Osode, Nobles, Adaman Hauberk, Black Belt, 3/5 Shura, Full Homam, Gaiters, full relic for WAR and MNK, unless he's that incredibly indispensible that he deserves it.

Dezz pretty much sums up most of the way our sacks decide who gets drops. We limit the number of consecutive large drops a person can get. You don't get and Osode and a Noble's Tunic from Kirin on the same night no matter if you have WHM, NIN, WAR, RNG.

On Dezz's #3, we would however, reward a hardcore member with a Novio even if they had many other pimped jobs. We definitely wouldn't give it to a new BLM by default or something. We would probably give it to a BLM main, who was BLM main only and showed up as much as the uber pimp with damn near everything. That's one of those close calls.

[Norelco]

This actually happened fairly recently when a THF stopped coming for nearly 2 months and leveled SAM to 75 and expects to get an Osode quickly. It won't happen that way. They will have to show up to events and re-establish themselves so to speak, before geting anything like that.

QFT

[rydiu]

lol@lot priority on osodes

[Roranora]

I'll explicitly say it since I'm not getting any counter arguments beyond "It won't work". How (or by what process) does your linkshell operate without a point system to determine who gets what items? (Is there a list, is there a job matrix, is it discussed each camp, or after items drop, who makes the decision, how many people collaborate in deciding, etc...)

For our LS personally, and I think most HNM LSs without a points system, yes we have a list with every rare/ex drop on it, yes job priorites come into play, but ultimately, it's all relative. You should know your LS, or at least the leader(s) should on who normally does what, who prefers to do what, who deserves what, and what will help the LS. Factoring all of those into play, discussions do sometimes come up at camps, and after it drops, generous people opt to pass, and the people are told who's up for it by the myself, or a group decision of the leaders.

Our dynamis LS isn't unique to our HNM LS, so there is a point system in store there, simply because the times we set to run were the most convenient for the entire group and who puts in the most, usually receives the most. We also keep track of who has put in the most Cosmo-cleanses in our HNM LS for some items (generally just for the intial order on earrings.. which everyone has by now anyway), simply because that's money out of the pocket, but any consideration from that, comes well after considering how it helps the LS the most. Ie. even a DRK who's never missed a run isn't lotting the homam hands a PLD is going to use who's missed a few, and more importantly the DRK won't want to.

All-in-all, there really is no remedy that everyone on these forums will agree upon, but it does help tremendously to just work to agree with the majority of the LS on how things should play out and what people prefer the most. At least, I as an HNM LS leader can't give you a cookie-cutter answer to distribute loot, just advise that the ideal solution involves members and leaders who aren't in things for themselves and willing to work most things out before they're in the pool.

Our post with all the priorities is open for reply to our LS, and anyone who has a question why I initially listed something someway is free to ask, and we'll talk something over and sometimes I change something, sometimes I take someone off an item because they're not interested in it enough to take it when he/she feels another would utilize it better. I don't claim to be perfect as a leader and my members are there to correct me when they feel strongly enough to change something.

Of course, the larger a LS becomes, the more difficult this becomes and the less "bonded" a group feels. After seeing Nynja post in support of points and then listing that it's usually only like "30-60 people" I probably would see the reasoning to lean toward points more in that case. Our LS is smaller than most, I'd guess, as we haven't had an LS list of more than 25 people in 4 months, when we scheduled Vrtra on a 2-week notice.

[Aodh]

I'd hate to "win" an Osode (by process of someone telling me to lot because it would benifit me the most out of the LS) only to be excluded on the next big thing to drop that I really wanted.

[Mephisto]

lol@lot priority on osodes

Did you ever figure out if Adaman Hauberk was better than Hecatomb Harness for WS?

[Gatsby]

Just Thinking..

Are the "smaller" HNM LSes the ones that don't use points? While the ones that are larger use points?

The last post by Roranora made me think about this point.

[Septimus]

lol@lot priority on osodes

Why are you still here?

[Jeryhn]

Leaders should be able to reconize peoples potentials, and have an eye for item douchebaggary.

This is the correct answer when it comes to divine rule.

Of course, there will be some leaders that take advantage of the holes in this, just as a leader could take advantage the holes in a points system. The problem here in either case is not the system, its the corruption.

Once you start giving items to those that do less effort but get more out of it, you set a horrible example.

Anyone can agree to this. However, I could only have WAR leveled, have 100% attendance, be better than anyone in the linkshell at what I do, and want to lot BLM relic armor because I like the way it looks on my mannequin.

Its not only about effort, its also about smart item distribution.

I'm sure people will disagree, but a BST that goes to nearly all events should get the Ridill over the WAR that only goes to Fafnir. That Ridill will be hitting more mobs in the hands of the BST over time than the WAR.

That depends. BST has a sword skill of 200. Does the BST have any other jobs, or is planning to leveling any other jobs (meaning making a concerted effort)? Are there others in the linkshell that can use the Ridill? Giving a BST a Ridill would be much akin to giving a Paladin the Bahamut's Staff - they aren't gonna get any use out of it due to job limitations

Otherwise, you're correct.

How do you deal with the drama surrounding lot rights. I'm curious because I see this possibly being a problem later on in life and I'd rather be prepared for it now. If you could, provide the details on anything you specifically regarding this.

If people do not like the decisions of the leaders, they can fuck off. Plain and simple. If you're going to go emotarded about a piece of gear you do not deserve, you need to improve or get the fuck out.

I included one element that you missed. It's the fact that the LS needed that person on another job, not that the person decided to come on that other job.

If it comes down to this wire, the lotting of the Chapeau between these two people, the 1st guy will get the next Chapeau anyway.

You have in fact peanalized the person who considers themself to be RDM Main because they decided to be more helpful/useful to the LS to be on another job.

If his WAR is consistantly more helpful to the linkshell, and the other guy's RDM is consistantly more helpful to the linkshell, where's the problem in letting the person who is going to get the most use of it lot first?

So what you're saying is that when the linkshell does something and needs a WAR and a RDM, the person with both WAR and RDM leveled should refuse to come as WAR because if he comes WAR he'll be forced to take loot he doesn't want? Yeah, I can see that working perfectly.

You can't see anything working out perfectly given your history on these forums Flux. Pardon me if I'm not trying to impress you as so many others have tried and failed.

Not to mention, you missed what I was saying entirely.
Good fucking game.

[Ryany]

I’d say one of the biggest problems with FFXI that keeps point systems from being used is with how uptight Square is on 3rd party programs. WoW allows just about any 3rd party program as long as it is not a hack. This allows 3rd party programs to track all loot and people in the raid and I believe automatically dumps the information into a spreadsheet/webpage. This turns what would be a 30 minute point update in FFXI into maybe a 5 minute update in WoW. I’d bet that 90% of WoW guilds use some variation of a point system.

I’m all for a points system, especially one that uses the points as currency as in your spent points lower your total points. This helps keep what I like to call loot rotation going as in someone that wins something will likely drop behind a few people after they spend points. It also would work great in FFXI on people with multiple jobs in that someone with 7 jobs or whatever would not be able to take everything he/she can equip because there is no way he/she would be able to keep enough points to keep doing that in the long run. It also helps keep someone with 100% attendance from always trumping someone with 95% attendance on anything and everything.

As for someone that has built a large mountain of points and quits showing up, many WoW guilds will use a rolling window of either last 30, 60, or 90 days that tracks attendance. Most set up a minimum attendance percentage for that window and set up restrictions based on that. For example, someone could be required to have 50% or more attendance in the last 30 days to bid on an item regardless of how many total career points they have.

I’d say that point systems do eliminate a vast majority of the bitching on who gets what. I was in a linkshell in FFXI that did not have a point system and there was always constant bitching at least with a few people on decisions about who got what. This caused there to be pressure to pass over high attendance people for low attendance people because the high attendance people “got all the loot”. It was no shock to me at least that many of these low attendance people burned the linkshell by vanishing shortly after getting what they wanted. I’m in a WoW guild that uses a point system and I can honestly say that there has been virtually no bitching.

A potential problem with FFXI and point systems would be point inflation due to all the times you spend hours and hours doing something that yields nothing and thus has no points being taken out of the system. (such as the 3 kings or Tiamat) You could counter inflation by not rewarding points unless loot would drop, but you can figure that attendance would drop for the 3kings/tiamat. The best solution probably would be to just up the cost of Tiamat/3Kings loot to compensate on a fixed item cost system or have things work out naturally on an open bidding item cost system.

[FFXIFlux]

So what you're saying is that when the linkshell does something and needs a WAR and a RDM, the person with both WAR and RDM leveled should refuse to come as WAR because if he comes WAR he'll be forced to take loot he doesn't want? Yeah, I can see that working perfectly.

You can't see anything working out perfectly given your history on these forums Flux. Pardon me if I'm not trying to impress you as so many others have tried and failed.

Not to mention, you missed what I was saying entirely.
Good fucking game.

We, as in the people the responded to your post, not just me, got exactly what you were saying, and it was fucking stupid. Good go at trying to save face there.

[layoneil]

what happens if a member spends most of their time XPing their new job to get on the priority system instead of spending their time camping or farming pop items. Do you allow the XP whore to lot in front of the person who has spent their time with the LS?

if you XP during event time without express permission that's rarely if ever granted, you lose your pearl.

Then don't use points. For us we could have up to 60 people at an event.

we won't, i'm not the guy insulting people who don't agree with them. calling them retards who can't run Excel. not having the desire to doesn't mean not being able to.

There are 15 AF2s, not just duelist chapeau, and thats just Xarcabard. We go to Windurst and 5 peices of AF2 drop per hour. You can seriously keep track of lotting for that?

most stuff is free lot if you can wear it, if you have drama whores that want to complain about who gets Saotome Kabuto (aka Optical Hat -1), break some pearls.

fortunately, most FFXI items suck and most people don't care about 10 out of 15 items in each Dynamis anyway.

If you're saying you do have the list... wow. People are arguing that it's too much effort to maintain a 1+1-1 point system, but it's not to keep track of everyone's jobs and levels and discuss and set priorities on the 100ish EX items that drop off every land king, sky god and in dynamis...

you don't have to keep track of that many things when most items in the game suck. i agree that points work much better in any other MMO because most items are useful and most of the items have progression.

because FFXI items mostly are useless, i think a point system is doing way more work than necessary. who the hell cares who gets Bard Slippers?

I'll explicitly say it since I'm not getting any counter arguments beyond "It won't work". How (or by what process) does your linkshell operate without a point system to determine who gets what items? (Is there a list, is there a job matrix, is it discussed each camp, or after items drop, who makes the decision, how many people collaborate in deciding, etc...)

there's a list of about 30 items total in the game that actually matter.

there's 4 tiers for each item, each tier gets to lot against everyone on the same tier, if no one from the top tier is present move to the next tier. some tiers have 1 person on it, some have more, it depends.

the 4th tier is unwritten, basically, those are really new members or old members that don't really play those jobs and/or don't really want the items (because Mog Space is important to some people with 5+ jobs and because some people are actually not loot whores). and for the 4th tier people it'll get to them when it gets to them, may or may not include secondary characters.

i wrote up the initial draft of the tiers, all the Sackholders are free to suggest any changes they see. when people level new jobs and get to around 65/70 we update as necessary. when stuff drops we update as necessary, when people show noticable changes in attitude/attendance we update as necessary.

besides stuff actually dropping, none of this stuff happens so often that the updates need to be done daily (like a point system) or even weekly for the most part.

occassionally, for the stuff that's not on the list, i'll say "blah blah really wants it, you should pass for him." and most people don't take issue with that (again maybe because passing Bard Slippers is usually not the end of the world). this is really rare, not something that happens every month.

and i'm pretty sure this won't work well for an LS that has 60+ people, with new people that quit and join every week. in an LS like that, it probably does matter who gets the damn Bard Slippers.

but in my LS it's working okay right now, we're not that big and our turnover is not that high.

Limbus has it's own system for Homam, Nashira and coins.