COR Endgame usage

[DrObvious]

However, on bigger HNMs like wyrms, and even bahamut fight, a stuck slow II or paralyze II followed by the corresponding shot can really cripple a mob just that much more and make it easier on your tanks.

Unless quick draw enhances accuracy it won't be doing much for bahamut since it's hard as hell to land stuff on him, at least as bad as cerberus.

[kawkawkaw]

WHAT NOW?

[XxSlusherxx]

However, on bigger HNMs like wyrms, and even bahamut fight, a stuck slow II or paralyze II followed by the corresponding shot can really cripple a mob just that much more and make it easier on your tanks.

Unless quick draw enhances accuracy it won't be doing much for bahamut since it's hard as hell to land stuff on him, at least as bad as cerberus.

Quick Draw can't miss either that or lvl40cors have been hitting Tiamat by sheer luck. the only thing that can be resisted asfaik is the damage.

[FFXIFlux]

Unless quick draw enhances accuracy it won't be doing much for bahamut since it's hard as hell to land stuff on him, at least as bad as cerberus.

Bahamut makes me wish I was in Sky. I'm pretty sure with max enfeebling/accuracy/hq staff/elemental seal, you'll still be at 5% land rate on him. Cerberus I think if you're maxed out you'll be above the minimum land chance, but it's not like it matters on him.

Landed paralyze II on cerberus tonight and it went off once. Landed Slow II a few times but it wasn't visually any slower.

[NynJa]

I dont think this was clarified...

do you debuff first THEN do quick draw, or do you do quick draw BEFORE the debuff ?

[DrObvious]

However, on bigger HNMs like wyrms, and even bahamut fight, a stuck slow II or paralyze II followed by the corresponding shot can really cripple a mob just that much more and make it easier on your tanks.

Unless quick draw enhances accuracy it won't be doing much for bahamut since it's hard as hell to land stuff on him, at least as bad as cerberus.

Quick Draw can't miss either that or lvl40cors have been hitting Tiamat by sheer luck. the only thing that can be resisted asfaik is the damage.

It won't matter if quick draw increases enfeeble potency by 500% if the enfeeble can't be landed without elemental seal in the first place. Sorry if I was unclear.

[FFXIFlux]

But good lord the thf roll and it's crit bonus is insane.

Hell yeah. My ideal "burn" party would be NIN/WAR, WAR/NIN, THF/NIN, BRD, COR, RDM

That way you get the bonus on both Fighter's Roll and Rogue's Roll...and when you roll that 11 on Rogue's with a THF in the party it's like Mighty Strikes.

I think I'd still go for 2x brd. 130ish +ATK from minuet is hard to beat and double march harder. You'd need more than +40% crit from rogues roll to compete with double march and then you're still looking at doing weaponskills a lot less often.

do you debuff first THEN do quick draw, or do you do quick draw BEFORE the debuff ?

Debuff > shot.

[Eleven19]

Alrighty. Well this my first post here. Buddy of mine introduced me to the forum, maybe I can offer some more insight.

I'm a 75 COR, i'm more prone to using /rng for everything besides a few choice HNM, in which I'm /nin (Or when I have it soon, /whm). At 75 You're looking at a capped 250 Marksmanship skill. Mine is merited to 262, and with the addition of a gun belt I'm at 267. This for me makes /rng a much more viable sub for activities like Sky and HNM. I was able to successfully land shots AND weaponskills on all of the gods, and even fairly well on Kirin. This is WITH merits mind you, I tried all this without merits and boy-oh-boy was that a waste of ammunition.

In most set ups, I'm the choice for any BLM / SMN party, since my linkshell usually will mix the two jobs in. Evoker's Roll and Wizard's Roll are the two most used choices. If I find myself with a party of 4 or more SMN, drachen roll does help to add damage to diabolos' Nether Blast, and Puppet Roll will add a nice accuracy bonus to Garuda's Predator claws.

I've been in a melee group once or twice, I think I offer more to a mage party than melee, a agree that a BRD is usually better for most situations.

Quick Draw does help a lot for just about anything. Though I really need to try and boost my damage. Random Deal I will usually save in case I bust a buff.

So yeah. You won't do as much damage, or be as accurate as a ranger, but you can do a nice little chunk of damage with merits into marksmanship. If that's how you wanna play, anyway.

[Tomino]

It won't matter if quick draw increases enfeeble potency by 500% if the enfeeble can't be landed without elemental seal in the first place.

Warlock's Roll might help.
if it follows the trend of any other COR buff, it's one good Mag.Acc. bonus with a RDM in pty.

[DeadLegend]

When I was leveling red mage around 50 I had a corsair in pt give me the Warlock Roll and I was able to consistently blind and sleep bats with no merits or gear for enfeebling skill. Seems pretty good <.<

[FFXIFlux]

Warlock's Roll might help.
if it follows the trend of any other COR buff, it's one good Mag.Acc. bonus with a RDM in pty.

Debuffs either are going to land or they aren't, roll isn't going to make that big of a difference. Many debuffs have 5% to land with elemental seal, roll won't change that. Many other debuffs land easily and roll isn't needed. The few debuffs that are hard to land but accuracy helps, I'd rather have bard +MND songs instead and just wear a bit more +enfeebling.

The simple fact of the matter is that BRD buffs > COR buffs. BRD debuffs > everything else in the game because elegy alone is crazy. COR damage > BRD damage. So when you're looking to fill a support slot in a party you're pretty much picking BRD except maybe for the SMN or BLM party. When you're looking to fill a damage slot, you're not picking COR.

[Lithiani]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a partial resistance result (less effective or lesser duration) on debuffs?

Also, Elegy is not (by any stretch) impossible to resist, and as a (as far as the games mechanics are concerned) magical debuff, it would be enhanced by Warlocks Roll. Quite a few BRDs would kill puppies for a method of reducing Elegy resist rates on some enemies.

It's also worthy of note that COR rolls stack with BRD songs, and that COR Rolls have more of an effect on Mage power than BRD songs do. BRDs can do Physical Accuracy and Attack, but they don't have the kind of boost to Magical Accuracy and Attack that COR does.

COR do things BRD does not. There is a place for both, for certain situations. Are you really telling me you wouldn't try and work a COR in given the oportunity?

Also, the Subtle Blow + roll is sexy. I'm begining to think that Subtle Blow has been vastly overlooked, for too long.

[FFXIFlux]

Also, Elegy is not (by any stretch) impossible to resist, and as a (as far as the games mechanics are concerned) magical debuff, it would be enhanced by Warlocks Roll. Quite a few BRDs would kill puppies for a method of reducing Elegy resist rates on some enemies.

Unless that roll is somehow far better than all other cor rolls put together, it's not going to matter much. And if you have problems with elegy landing, and you really need it to land, taking an additional BRD will have it land more often than taking a COR.

COR do things BRD does not. There is a place for both, for certain situations. Are you really telling me you wouldn't try and work a COR in given the oportunity?

COR does offer things that BRDs don't, it's just that what they offer is too weak. 5 MDEF from magus roll, wheee, what, 5 or 10 MATK or MACC, wheee. It's ineffective compared to what other jobs can offer in that party slot, and for melee buffs, what COR offers doesn't come close to the 4 Ms, madrigal, minuet, march and mambo.

[NynJa]

COR does offer things that BRDs don't, it's just that what they offer is too weak. 5 MDEF from magus roll, wheee, what, 5 or 10 MATK or MACC, wheee. It's ineffective compared to what other jobs can offer in that party slot, and for melee buffs, what COR offers doesn't come close to the 4 Ms, madrigal, minuet, march and mambo.

actually, with a blm in the party, an 11 on Wizard roll is MAB+13, a lucky roll is MAB+11, and a roll of 10 is +8 MAB. Consider the fact that the Sorc Ring is MAB+10, and more of the hardcore blm's will go to the extremes of carring an extra gearset which could cost a couple million gear (I'm looking at you zenith) just to propel them into yellow HP, essentially bending yourself over to be 1shot. Wizard's Roll doesnt require blm's to do that (though they could for an extra 10 MAB.


As far as Mambo goes, the only tanks who use Mambo are ninjas...I've never seen a pld tank go "MAMBO PRZZ". Its pretty common knowledge now that using a roll w/ that specific job in the party makes a notable improvement on the potency of the roll. What's to say that a 10, lucky or 11 isnt better than Mambo ?? Seeing as how the evasion stat is hidden, its pretty hard to tell.


Minuet vs Chaos Roll (with a drk in the party):
For comparisant purposes, here are the variables:
THF75/WAR37, has roughly 460 base attack using Sis Kebabi (I think thats my actual attack without any other buffs, on brd atm heading to bastok so I cant get anything more concrete).
Using Berserk should up the attack to 575.
The bard is using double minuet at maximum potency (Cornette+1, 5/5 Minuet merits). Minuet4 therefor should give a static 66 increase, Minuet3 should give a static 58 increase.
Chaos Roll with a drk in the party gives the following boosts on 10, lucky and 11, in that respective order: 16%, 18%, 25%

Take a look at this table and see how double minuet fares in contrast to Chaos Roll w/ a drk in the party:

THF75/WAR37     Dbl Min     Chaos-10     Chaos-Lu     Chaos-11
                 +113         +16%         +18%         +25%
Base Atk 460      573          533         542          575                
Berserk  575      688          667         678          718

Chaos Roll's bonus is percentage based...so if you got a high base attack, it'll smoke minuet. Those values may be wrong dependant on the order FFXI calculates buffs.

Unless the ATK bonus from chaos roll is based on the COR's attack instead of the recipients attack, in which case it sucks.

[Lithiani]

Also, Elegy is not (by any stretch) impossible to resist, and as a (as far as the games mechanics are concerned) magical debuff, it would be enhanced by Warlocks Roll. Quite a few BRDs would kill puppies for a method of reducing Elegy resist rates on some enemies.

Unless that roll is somehow far better than all other cor rolls put together, it's not going to matter much. And if you have problems with elegy landing, and you really need it to land, taking an additional BRD will have it land more often than taking a COR.

While your solution would be effective, brute force attacks lack style. Plus there are only so many BRDs available.

COR do things BRD does not. There is a place for both, for certain situations. Are you really telling me you wouldn't try and work a COR in given the oportunity?

COR does offer things that BRDs don't, it's just that what they offer is too weak. 5 MDEF from magus roll, wheee, what, 5 or 10 MATK or MACC, wheee. It's ineffective compared to what other jobs can offer in that party slot, and for melee buffs, what COR offers doesn't come close to the 4 Ms, madrigal, minuet, march and mambo.

Magic Accuracy +10 is not weak. Nor (as has been pointed out) is MAB+10. People pay millions upon millions of gil for those stats, and they do so for a reason.

And if you can't see the utility of +Crit% or +Double Attack, then there is something wrong with you. And as I've said before, I'm now suspecting we have neglected Subtle Blow as a trait, waaaaay to much.

As far as Mambo goes, the only tanks who use Mambo are ninjas...I've never seen a pld tank go "MAMBO PRZZ". Its pretty common knowledge now that using a roll w/ that specific job in the party makes a notable improvement on the potency of the roll. What's to say that a 10, lucky or 11 isnt better than Mambo ?? Seeing as how the evasion stat is hidden, its pretty hard to tell.

You will notice Ninja Roll. I was PTing recently on Mount Z, on Wootzshells. Puller accidently got an Eruca, which was tearing my shadows apart, even after I swapped to my evade set over my attack build.

He threw NIN roll. I could hauby tank on Ni alone again (lucky number). It's awesome.

Minuet vs Chaos Roll (with a drk in the party):
For comparisant purposes, here are the variables:
THF75/WAR37, has roughly 460 base attack using Sis Kebabi (I think thats my actual attack without any other buffs, on brd atm heading to bastok so I cant get anything more concrete).
Using Berserk should up the attack to 575.
The bard is using double minuet at maximum potency (Cornette+1, 5/5 Minuet merits). Minuet4 therefor should give a static 66 increase, Minuet3 should give a static 58 increase.
Chaos Roll with a drk in the party gives the following boosts on 10, lucky and 11, in that respective order: 16%, 18%, 25%

Take a look at this table and see how double minuet fares in contrast to Chaos Roll w/ a drk in the party:

THF75/WAR37     Dbl Min     Chaos-10     Chaos-Lu     Chaos-11
                 +113         +16%         +18%         +25%
Base Atk 460      573          533         542          575                
Berserk  575      688          667         678          718

Chaos Roll's bonus is percentage based...so if you got a high base attack, it'll smoke minuet. Those values may be wrong dependant on the order FFXI calculates buffs.

/nod

It is also worth pointing out that you are comparing double Minuet to a single COR roll. It's hard to estimate the average real-world results of Chaos Roll, given the nature of COR rolls, but if you can average 14% (less than the results of lucky, 10 or 11, so perfectly viable), it'll match single minuet on the non-berserked numbers, and beat it with berserk.

BRDs major advantage is they can stack the same type of buff for concentrated effect.

[FFXIFlux]

actually, with a blm in the party, an 11 on Wizard roll is MAB+13, a lucky roll is MAB+11, and a roll of 10 is +8 MAB. Consider the fact that the Sorc Ring is MAB+10, and more of the hardcore blm's will go to the extremes of carring an extra gearset which could cost a couple million gear (I'm looking at you zenith) just to propel them into yellow HP, essentially bending yourself over to be 1shot. Wizard's Roll doesnt require blm's to do that (though they could for an extra 10 MAB.

The chance of an 11 is less than the chance of busting. Realistically you'll have an 7 MAB from that roll. http://ffxi.killvoid.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=116534 7MAB is maybe 3% or less extra damage. x5 BLM means the COR with that roll is adding maybe 15% of the damage of 1 BLM. Thats not awe inspiring by any means, and tells me you're better off going 6x BLM than 5x BLM + COR. Had COR had a decent -enmity roll, things would be different.

Take a look at this table and see how double minuet fares in contrast to Chaos Roll w/ a drk in the party:

THF75/WAR37     Dbl Min     Chaos-10     Chaos-Lu     Chaos-11
                 +113         +16%         +18%         +25%
Base Atk 460      573          533         542          575                
Berserk  575      688          667         678          718

Chaos Roll's bonus is percentage based...so if you got a high base attack, it'll smoke minuet. Those values may be wrong dependant on the order FFXI calculates buffs.

I don't know the stacking but often % buffs work on base, not each other, so most likely your berserk numbers at 25% would be giving +115 attack, not +143. Regardless even +16% is an unlikely roll, you can expect to get +13%. You're going to have +25% less often than you'll have BRD 2hr. Also last double minuet I had was over +130 ATK, but that was probably merits.

So realistically...

THF75/WAR37     Dbl Min     2hr Min     Chaos-Av with DRK
                 +130         +260         +13% 
Base Atk 460      590          720         519 
Berserk  575      743          873         673

[Lithiani]

I don't know the stacking but often % buffs work on base, not each other, so most likely your berserk numbers at 25% would be giving +115 attack, not +143. Regardless even +16% is an unlikely roll, you can expect to get +13%. You're going to have +25% less often than you'll have BRD 2hr. Also last double minuet I had was over +130 ATK, but that was probably merits.

So realistically...

THF75/WAR37     Dbl Min     2hr Min     Chaos-Av with DRK
                 +130         +260         +13% 
Base Atk 460      590          720         519 
Berserk  575      743          873         673

*AND* a second Phantom Roll. Crit% or DoubleAtk, for instance.

[Septimus]

Therefore, by this logic, we should not have Red Mages in alliances because for 5-6 minutes every two hours a BRD's Ballad is going to be twice as good as Refresh.

[FFXIFlux]

Therefore, by this logic, we should not have Red Mages in alliances because for 5-6 minutes every two hours a BRD's Ballad is going to be twice as good as Refresh.

You're not going to hold Yin and Yang until 4 COR manage to all simultaneously get an 11 when a BRD can simply click their 2hr. Not only is a parse of an XP party not going to be at the power of an 11 for the whole time, but you can't even count on haveing an 11 at a critical time.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

Therefore, by this logic, we should not have Red Mages in alliances because for 5-6 minutes every two hours a BRD's Ballad is going to be twice as good as Refresh.

You're not going to hold Yin and Yang until 4 COR manage to all simultaneously get an 11 when a BRD can simply click their 2hr. Not only is a parse of an XP party not going to be at the power of an 11 for the whole time, but you can't even count on haveing an 11 at a critical time.

...hold Yin and Yang, what? And anyways for DL refreshing DRK and MNK 2h is better than soul voice by far.