COR Endgame usage

[Tomino]

the benefits of a COR depend on the whole party setup, meaning all 5 jobs; not by the number of CORs or BRDs in it.

and golden rule is quite simple : do not invite COR as support, it isnt. COR is the sweet 6th, after tank, 2 DDs, healer and supporter. so basically comparing it to a BRD is like saying DRK sucks because it doesnt have Thundaga III.

[Koyangi]

the benefits of a COR depend on the whole party setup, meaning all 5 jobs; not by the number of CORs or BRDs in it.

and golden rule is quite simple : do not invite COR as support, it isnt. COR is the sweet 6th, after tank, 2 DDs, healer and supporter. so basically comparing it to a BRD is like saying DRK sucks because it doesnt have Thundaga III.

well said

[Elesirdur]

the benefits of a COR depend on the whole party setup, meaning all 5 jobs; not by the number of CORs or BRDs in it.

and golden rule is quite simple : do not invite COR as support, it isnt. COR is the sweet 6th, after tank, 2 DDs, healer and supporter. so basically comparing it to a BRD is like saying DRK sucks because it doesnt have Thundaga III.

qft

This seems to be quite a good way of envisiging Corsair. Not as a job that will, by itself make a pt better (like a BRD or RDM might). But, Corsair will enhance the abilities of the other jobs in a way that turns a merely self-suffecient pt into one that can really tear things up. I don't think there's any job in FFXI that really does that so I understand people being recalcitrant to assign them a firm role in XP, or end-game. The same goes for BLU; it's a very versatile job that I honestly prefer as a support job but with the right merits and SJ can be a wicked DD.

COR and BLU added something new to the discourse of FFXI job management, and I think Tomino's got a good logic for understanding how to employ a Corsair in the most effecient fashion.

[Norelco]

Mentioned this before, try an XP party with:

NIN, WAR, THF, BRD, RDM, COR

There you have triple mp regen, the WAR is there for Fighter's Roll bonus, the THF is there for Rogue's roll bonus.

A little offtopic since this thread is abotu endgame useage...but meh.

I'm happy to be put in wherever, but I really enjoy being in a SMN pt or a BLM pt.

[mastergara]

I never really intended this to become a BRD vs. COR thread. I wonder at what point in devolved into such? And why the COR hate Flux?

I like seeing the responses with numbers to the buffs, as well as additional information on practical uses for COR (the party examples were good info). Sure, COR is not the favored job that BLU is right now, but there does seem to be a pull towards hybrid abilities with how SE setup the new jobs. Come to think of it, mayhaps tis similar to what was intended with the initial SubJob setup?

COR does seem to add more to the party when there is the proper jobs at hand. And isnt most of the party setups in the game situational? Would you rather have a PLD or a NIN tanking Chary? How about a mob with high acc, massive triple attack, and decently hard hitting? Situational.

Am I expecting COR to be the magic bullet for endgame? Notsomuch. I was expecting information on COR usage, not "omgcortehsuckzusebrdonrinooblol!", and a fair amount of good information has been posted.

Thanks again, and keep up the informative posts. ^^/

~nyow~

[FFXIFlux]

And why the COR hate Flux?

I don't hate PUP because it's a useless peice of shit job anymore than I hate COR. I'm just not going to be inviting CORs to too many XP parties, and on HNM even less often.

[Vigion]

Sure, COR is not the favored job that BLU is right now

lol? Wont mention anything on that. As far as peoples beliefs on cor + brd or brd x2, its exactly that their beliefs. I can say one thing though, SE didn't sit there trying to determine how to improve brd x2 in a party, rather then how cor + brd can improve a pt. Everything is situational though, when people realize that these arguements will end.

[FFXIFlux]

Everything is situational though, when people realize that these arguements will end.

Except theres only one situation I care about, killing stuff. For situations like standing around in town, yeah, COR wins hands down, the pirate outfit is hot.

[Vigion]

Everything is situational though, when people realize that these arguements will end.

Except theres only one situation I care about, killing stuff. For situations like standing around in town, yeah, COR wins hands down, the pirate outfit is hot.

Like I mentioned on the post above yours, thats your beliefs. Hey thats all good, but people who know what the job can bring will understand what I meant as in situational.

[Sonomaa]

healers roll Ive actually found is more effective than evokers, especially on mobs where nukes arent taken constantly but at magic bursts or something, putting on a healers + mag atk or mag acc can make a huge different, and sometimes both magic acc+atk can be worth it, but its situational, first nuke, last nuke, otherwise you need to keep the MP roll ready, and evokers really isnt that good unless you have a smn in, but healers will always give them back a better amount of MP while they rest

and in flux's defense, he probably hasnt pted with a good COR, there are very few good cors, just like very few good blus, youll see the good blus, they are the ones tearing mobs apart and only god gear merited wars can beat them. a good cor understands thier roll might be a support, have a /WHM sub, full MP gear, and tossing out support cures and doing thier quickdraws on a harder mob for added damage and enfeebling.

Cor is not a bard rep as has been stated, but when used properly (and I stress PROPERLY) it can make a good party better. Bard is still better for melee, but mages pull more from COR in my opinion. It doesnt mean a COR cant help a melee party out well, its just that there are no magic attack and magic acc songs other than etudes and who wants to spend all of thier time on bard throwing 5 mages 1 etude a piece, youll go insane.

In closing, dont give up on COR flux, just remember your probably not seeing cors who know thier job well and understand how to fill the support role effectivly, if you go to the mire and you see a cor there with a DD sub shooting things with an almost 900 delay gear setup, they arent filling a good role there. Take that same COR, give them full MP gear, whm sub, and the proper staves, and itll take the MP drain off of a healing mage, as well as enhancing thier power to keep the party covered.

COR isnt RNG with rolls, its BRD with guns

[FFXIFlux]

healers roll Ive actually found is more effective than evokers, especially on mobs where nukes arent taken constantly but at magic bursts or something, putting on a healers + mag atk or mag acc can make a huge different, and sometimes both magic acc+atk can be worth it, but its situational, first nuke, last nuke, otherwise you need to keep the MP roll ready, and evokers really isnt that good unless you have a smn in, but healers will always give them back a better amount of MP while they rest

According to this http://ffxi.killvoid.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=116534 healer's roll would be good at low level, but by 75 the likely average of around +4hMP is pretty weak and I wouldn't see it being used. When I was leveling BLU we had a COR putting healing roll on us on kuftal crabs between pulls and I asked him to stop because it just wasn't worth losing a better roll for due to his recast time, overwriting evoker's or hunter's was horrid since we spent 90% of our time standing.

According to the recent thread they're talking about a new roll for COR. My guess would be Healer's Roll II for 61.

[Tomino]

when the job came out, I was one of those supporting the /WHM choice.
right now I'm pretty confident you wont see me subbing healer anymore:

inviting COR after healer and supporter and asking him to cure is exagerating healings; the mages would already have double if not triple Refresh, and mp shouldnt be an issue for the main healer, especially in TP burn.
either, inviting COR as support (thus healing too) is a bad choice, because his buffs will be too random; as Flux said, you would be crying missing a bard the whole time.

also, giving mp to COR weakens his Evoker's Roll. because if you Bust! it (taking risks above VI) it means a -1mp/tick refresh for 5 minutes. so either you never take the risk (bad) or you get the malus (bad bad).
keeping COR/RNG means you can Bust! almost every roll because its negative modifiers wont matter much on the COR.

last, and most important, COR/WHM is plain damn boring.
so i'm gonna stick with /RNG and, if i'm not needed or wanted, I'd rather turn off the party invite.

[aurik]

healers roll Ive actually found is more effective than evokers, especially on mobs where nukes arent taken constantly but at magic bursts or something, putting on a healers + mag atk or mag acc can make a huge different, and sometimes both magic acc+atk can be worth it, but its situational, first nuke, last nuke, otherwise you need to keep the MP roll ready, and evokers really isnt that good unless you have a smn in, but healers will always give them back a better amount of MP while they rest

According to this http://ffxi.killvoid.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=116534 healer's roll would be good at low level, but by 75 the likely average of around +4hMP is pretty weak and I wouldn't see it being used. When I was leveling BLU we had a COR putting healing roll on us on kuftal crabs between pulls and I asked him to stop because it just wasn't worth losing a better roll for due to his recast time, overwriting evoker's or hunter's was horrid since we spent 90% of our time standing.

According to the recent thread they're talking about a new roll for COR. My guess would be Healer's Roll II for 61.

You'll almost never get less than 4hmp on healer's roll, actually.
Rolls 1, 2, 4, 5, and probably 7 should always be rerolled. 3 is +7, 6 is +3, the rest are 4-6. Plus you probably have a whm in the pt for most things, adds another few per tic. It's an awesome roll.

[Delekii]

And why the COR hate Flux?

I don't hate PUP because it's a useless peice of shit job anymore than I hate COR. I'm just not going to be inviting CORs to too many XP parties, and on HNM even less often.

are you kidding?

cor brd rdm backline is fucking amazing in xp pts. i can see something of an argument about cor in hnm situations (as discussed, you need the proper setup before cor is useful), but in xp, cor is fantastic.

[Norelco]

last, and most important, COR/WHM is plain damn boring. so i'm gonna stick with /RNG and, if i'm not needed or wanted, I'd rather turn off the party invite.

From 1-75 there was only a single instance where I was forced to come COR/WHM and it turned out for the best. The JP NIN we invited said he wasn't coming unless I changed my sub and at that point we were desperate for a tank. We went to Kuftal to fight Cocks and Tigers and the added paralyna/poisona really helped out the WHM, but pretty much gimped my ranged attacks.

Also, for HNM like Fafnir where our specific setup prefers not to feed the mob TP, I'm relegated to a pure support role so throwing curagas and status cures is helpful as well.

It really depends on the situation. Remember also that SE is far from finished in defining exactly what they want COR to do so expect changes to be made.

[Kylen]

but by 75 the likely average of around +4hMP is pretty weak and I wouldn't see it being used.

Healer's Roll gives an average expected value of +5 hMP without a WHM, and +7.6 hMP if you have a WHM in the party.

also, giving mp to COR weakens his Evoker's Roll. because if you Bust! it (taking risks above VI) it means a -1mp/tick refresh for 5 minutes. so either you never take the risk (bad) or you get the malus (bad bad).

Not exactly. If you bust Evoker's Roll you'll get -1 mp/tick, but that's only applied to any other Refresh effects that you might have. So if you aren't being refreshed by an external source, you won't lose any mp, but say if a RDM refreshes you you'll only get 2 mp/tick instead of 3 from it.

[FFXIFlux]

are you kidding?

cor brd rdm backline is fucking amazing in xp pts. i can see something of an argument about cor in hnm situations (as discussed, you need the proper setup before cor is useful), but in xp, cor is fantastic.

I don't disagree. As I've said like a zillion times already though, brd brd rdm is even better.

You'll almost never get less than 4hmp on healer's roll, actually.
Rolls 1, 2, 4, 5, and probably 7 should always be rerolled. 3 is +7, 6 is +3, the rest are 4-6. Plus you probably have a whm in the pt for most things, adds another few per tic. It's an awesome roll.

The probelm is you can often get less than 4, but you'll have a decent chance of getting significantly more. The average is probably more like 5 like Kylen said, but with how the numbers are you're probably going to get a lot of 8's and 9's and be holding on +4hMP frequently, even though you have a 9/36 of getting a +7.

I try to maximize my hMP on WHM, BLM and SMN with cookies, but on RDM and BLU I use other food and rarely rest. Since you miss the first resting tick I find hMP doesn't help me as much on WHM as it should as being able to sit for 20+ seconds in a row is infrequent. SMN and BLM I'll sit for long periods of time, but you need a LOT of hMP in order to cut more than 1 or 2 ticks off your rest time thanks to the cumulative +2hMP.

My typical XP parties have a RDM as back line, so healer's roll would do nothing. For parties with a WHM in it, I think it'd be nice, but will it actually improve the party? Probably not UNLESS you have no RDMs and BRDs, as with either of those, particularly a RDM, the WHM mana is almost never going to be an issue anyway just from refresh type buffs. On HNM you're probably looking at other rolls like matk and evokers etc.

Which is why I think the next roll they might add, assuming they stick to job rolls, would be Healer's II, as it's fantastic at low levels, theres room for improvement at high level. If they go with non-job rolls, here's hopeing for Chocobo's roll.

[aurik]

are you kidding?

cor brd rdm backline is fucking amazing in xp pts. i can see something of an argument about cor in hnm situations (as discussed, you need the proper setup before cor is useful), but in xp, cor is fantastic.

I don't disagree. As I've said like a zillion times already though, brd brd rdm is even better.

You'll almost never get less than 4hmp on healer's roll, actually.
Rolls 1, 2, 4, 5, and probably 7 should always be rerolled. 3 is +7, 6 is +3, the rest are 4-6. Plus you probably have a whm in the pt for most things, adds another few per tic. It's an awesome roll.

The probelm is you can often get less than 4, but you'll have a decent chance of getting significantly more. The average is probably more like 5 like Kylen said, but with how the numbers are you're probably going to get a lot of 8's and 9's and be holding on +4hMP frequently, even though you have a 9/36 of getting a +7.

I try to maximize my hMP on WHM, BLM and SMN with cookies, but on RDM and BLU I use other food and rarely rest. Since you miss the first resting tick I find hMP doesn't help me as much on WHM as it should as being able to sit for 20+ seconds in a row is infrequent. SMN and BLM I'll sit for long periods of time, but you need a LOT of hMP in order to cut more than 1 or 2 ticks off your rest time thanks to the cumulative +2hMP.

My typical XP parties have a RDM as back line, so healer's roll would do nothing. For parties with a WHM in it, I think it'd be nice, but will it actually improve the party? Probably not UNLESS you have no RDMs and BRDs, as with either of those, particularly a RDM, the WHM mana is almost never going to be an issue anyway just from refresh type buffs. On HNM you're probably looking at other rolls like matk and evokers etc.

Which is why I think the next roll they might add, assuming they stick to job rolls, would be Healer's II, as it's fantastic at low levels, theres room for improvement at high level. If they go with non-job rolls, here's hopeing for Chocobo's roll.

Cor's function in a merit party isn't to replace the bard, it's to be the 4th DD. I don't see the sense in comparing its mana restorative abilities when really you should be saying "the damage we lose from not having a sam/drg/drk/other 'weak' DD, is that worth the buffs we are getting". And COR is amazingly flexible with DD roll choices; a good COR will be able to choose rolls that complement the party's abilities. For example, on trolls with a monk, why not bust out monk's roll to reduce the frequency of diamondhide?

On HNM, I often see people getting rest tics. Except for fafhogg, where you're necessarily huddled within his AoE, almost every fight has somewhere that whm/blm/smn can recover mp. I tend to rate 1/t refresh about as strong as 4 hMP for mp recovery, so healer's roll and evoker's roll, to me, are similarly strong. You'd probably pick the roll that corresponds to the job in party, ie in a smn pt you'd choose evoker's roll, in a whm/blm pt, you'd choose healer's roll during recovery and another roll during attack. Hell you could even ask your mage party to sort themselves so that you can maintain different rolls on resting and standing mages.

[Norelco]

Cor's function in a merit party isn't to replace the bard, it's to be the 4th DD. I don't see the sense in comparing its mana restorative abilities when really you should be saying "the damage we lose from not having a sam/drg/drk/other 'weak' DD, is that worth the buffs we are getting". And COR is amazingly flexible with DD roll choices; a good COR will be able to choose rolls that complement the party's abilities. For example, on trolls with a monk, why not bust out monk's roll to reduce the frequency of diamondhide?

Excellent post, Aurik. Most people will ask you to perform rolls such as fighter's roll or something else when the job isn't in the party (major exception: Evoker's roll). I'm not averse to obliging their request, but I like to play around with the rolls and use a roll of a job that is in the party.

I hear alot of people say things like "lolchaosroll" but most don't realize how sweet that roll is, especially when a DRK is in the party for the +att bonus, as well as a bard making their attacks even stronger.

Monk's roll is another great example, or when a SAM is in the party I'll use their roll and help them out.

The main point of COR, in my opinion, is to pick out a trait in the party of a particular job and make it shine.

[Lithiani]

Most people will ask you to perform rolls such as fighter's roll or something else when the job isn't in the party (major exception: Evoker's roll). I'm not averse to obliging their request, but I like to play around with the rolls and use a roll of a job that is in the party.

I hear alot of people say things like "lolchaosroll" but most don't realize how sweet that roll is, especially when a DRK is in the party for the +att bonus, as well as a bard making their attacks even stronger.

Monk's roll is another great example, or when a SAM is in the party I'll use their roll and help them out.

The main point of COR, in my opinion, is to pick out a trait in the party of a particular job and make it shine.

Actually, Samurai Roll isn't that useful to a Samurai. Store TP is a percentile effect over normal TP gain. Most (intelligent) Samurai go for a 6/100 TP build (that is, a gear and merit setup that takes 6 connecting weapon strikes to get to 100% TP). To go from a 6/100 build to a 5/100 build would require an additional 29 StoreTP, which I don't think is possible from Samurai Roll.

Samurai Roll is actually more effective for lower delay users, where it's more likely that you are going to knock a number of hits off their #/100. I personally prefer Fighter's, Rogue's and Chaos Rolls.