Future Job Changes.

[Heian]

It appears I am full of shit

[Khamsin]

Ever tried to Release when a Behemot (KS, Limbus) is meteoring on your Garuda? lol @ wasted spell.The spell will actually change target, just the intended recipient is out of range

Not really...

That's odd, I could have sworn I've released Fenrir after Ultima started a Citadel Buster on him. He never finished. And you can't be out of range of CB.

[SephYuyX]

Ever tried to Release when a Behemot (KS, Limbus) is meteoring on your Garuda? lol @ wasted spell.The spell will actually change target, just the intended recipient is out of range

Not really...

That's odd, I could have sworn I've released Fenrir after Ultima started a Citadel Buster on him. He never finished. And you can't be out of range of CB.

CB =/= Metor?

Dunno about CB, but Metor can deffintly switch targets.

[Aodh]

Citidel Buster isn't targeted until it actually goes off. It draws in whoever has the most hate and counts down from 30 while drawing in the top hate person. After the countdown the move goes off. The reason spells fail is that the target is out of range (desummoned), Ultima just changes to the next highest person and draws them into range.

If you desummon, then resummon the same avatar however the spell retargets it. Example, Bones starts casting Freeze, you desummon and resummon Fenrir, the spell will hit Fenrir. You desummon Fenrir and resummon Titan, and the spell fizzles out, same if you don't resummon.

[Khamsin]

Ever tried to Release when a Behemot (KS, Limbus) is meteoring on your Garuda? lol @ wasted spell.The spell will actually change target, just the intended recipient is out of range

Not really...

That's odd, I could have sworn I've released Fenrir after Ultima started a Citadel Buster on him. He never finished. And you can't be out of range of CB.

CB =/= Metor?

Dunno about CB, but Metor can deffintly switch targets.

I was referring to the game mechanics in general, unless it differs by spell, ability, or mob.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

It appears I am full of shit

The fact that you added this:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3.../russtasig.jpg
To your sig on a FFXI forum says that you are completely full of shit.

[Khamsin]

It appears I am full of shit

The fact that you added this:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3.../russtasig.jpg
To your sig on a FFXI forum says that you are completely full of shit.

Or perhaps because it might be, oh I don't know... funny?

[FFXIFlux]

Okay, here's a question for you. How much time could be cut off the bloodpact timer before SMN became overpowered? Like, outsoloing BLM, outdamaging ridill wars in XP, or outhealing WHM?

[Not Kuno]

Okay, here's a question for you. How much time could be cut off the bloodpact timer before SMN became overpowered? Like, outsoloing BLM, outdamaging ridill wars in XP, or outhealing WHM?

Theres a big difference though. You can never compare smn to outdamaging ridill wars in xp because smn use mp and even if all BP timers were 0 there would be a point were you just ran out of MP. Thats why for endurance like numerous fights melee jobs will beat out MP dependant jobs.

[Khamsin]

Okay, here's a question for you. How much time could be cut off the bloodpact timer before SMN became overpowered? Like, outsoloing BLM, outdamaging ridill wars in XP, or outhealing WHM?

SMN already can outsolo BLM with the exception of solo XP and easily sleepable mobs. But on tough, unsleepable, non-gravityable, non-bindable mobs with lots of HP and nasty moves, a SMN > BLM solo.

[FFXIFlux]

SMN already can outsolo BLM with the exception of solo XP and easily sleepable mobs. But on tough, unsleepable, non-gravityable, non-bindable mobs with lots of HP and nasty moves, a SMN > BLM solo.

Solo XP and sleepable mobs are the large bulk of what "outsoloing a BLM" means. When I said outsolo BLM I was picturing something like Limbus where 1-3 BLM will do a run and get the final box. SMN just don't do that. SMN might rape coffer key mobs but for getting XP, farming sea organs etc. you're going to go BLM.

Theres a big difference though. You can never compare smn to outdamaging ridill wars in xp because smn use mp and even if all BP timers were 0 there would be a point were you just ran out of MP. Thats why for endurance like numerous fights melee jobs will beat out MP dependant jobs.

That would be 1 vote for "SMN damage is so low, they're not useful damage delears in XP."

I think there is a point where SMN could be a top damage dealer in XP. You might be right and it might take MORE than just removing bloodpact timer restrictions however.

[Rai]

Okay, here's a question for you. How much time could be cut off the bloodpact timer before SMN became overpowered? Like, outsoloing BLM, outdamaging ridill wars in XP, or outhealing WHM?

SMN already can outsolo BLM with the exception of solo XP and easily sleepable mobs. But on tough, unsleepable, non-gravityable, non-bindable mobs with lots of HP and nasty moves, a SMN > BLM solo.

"I'm better than you!!!! But ... you have to tie up your hands first ... oh and you need to be blindfolded. And don't forget, you aren't allowed to do anything at all. But THEN I will be better than you!!"

/rolleyes

What's going on in this derail anyway ... what happened to "use what you got and whatever applies to your style" ?

[layoneil]

What's going on in this derail anyway ... what happened to "use what you got and whatever applies to your style" ?

the whole point of updates is for people to get more than what they got. so that really doesn't apply.

[Aodh]

Okay, here's a question for you. How much time could be cut off the bloodpact timer before SMN became overpowered? Like, outsoloing BLM, outdamaging ridill wars in XP, or outhealing WHM?

Yinyang Robe (-5)
Summoner's Horn (-3)
Summoner's Pigaches (-2)
Summoner's Bracers (-2)
Summoner's Spats (-2)
Max BP- Setup (-14)

Reducing the BP timer by 15 would allow BP's every 31seconds. Reducing the timer to 30 would be every 16 seconds.

The fact that they're making a distinction between Damage and Enhancing BPs may mean that they could setup a second timer or just have different delays for different type BPs.

If they really want SMN to leave the avatars out, they should make all damage (magic and physical) BPs use TP to increase damage. Using what we do now as 0TP and increase from there based on TP. It wouldn't be overpowered because you would have to leave your SMN meleeing for 1min to get 100TP consuming 8ish~Mp/tic depending on gear.

[Khamsin]

Okay, here's a question for you. How much time could be cut off the bloodpact timer before SMN became overpowered? Like, outsoloing BLM, outdamaging ridill wars in XP, or outhealing WHM?

SMN already can outsolo BLM with the exception of solo XP and easily sleepable mobs. But on tough, unsleepable, non-gravityable, non-bindable mobs with lots of HP and nasty moves, a SMN > BLM solo.

"I'm better than you!!!! But ... you have to tie up your hands first ... oh and you need to be blindfolded. And don't forget, you aren't allowed to do anything at all. But THEN I will be better than you!!"

/rolleyes

What's going on in this derail anyway ... what happened to "use what you got and whatever applies to your style" ?

It's more like "I'm better than you!!!! Use everything at your disposal, and I'm still better than you!!!! But only on mobs that have too much HP to nuke down with your MP pool, and resist sleep a lot!!!!"

But to answer the question of what reducing BP timers would do, is that a SMN that can BP without delay would be on par with BLM on single mobs, in terms of just being a DD. Both jobs have their limited utility in addition to their DD ability. The reason I say a SMN would be on par with a BLM is because if a BLM can spend 322 MP on a 2000 damage Thundaga III MB, a SMN can do that much damage in two 164 MP BPs back to back for about the same MP cost. There is also the added bonus that the BP doesn't give TP, and doesn't draw hate to the SMN.

To be better than a BLM on mobs easily burned down with nukes, a SMN would need their meritted BPs to be buffed up to be as strong as a fully geared and meritted BLM's Thunder IV/Thundaga III. Reducing BP timers so a well-geared SMN can BP every 15 seconds or so would be enough.

[Rai]

What's going on in this derail anyway ... what happened to "use what you got and whatever applies to your style" ?

the whole point of updates is for people to get more than what they got. so that really doesn't apply.

learn2read

I'm really interested in any job updates which can bring variation into how things are fought.

The derail seems more like "My style to fight things and my job > all".

It's more like "I'm better than you!!!! Use everything at your disposal, and I'm still better than you!!!! But only on mobs that have too much HP to nuke down with your MP pool, and resist sleep a lot!!!!"

But you're still adjusting the playground to you benefit. What's the point when it doesn't convince anyone of "SMN > BLM" ? [/quote]

[FFXIFlux]

If they really want SMN to leave the avatars out, they should make all damage (magic and physical) BPs use TP to increase damage. Using what we do now as 0TP and increase from there based on TP. It wouldn't be overpowered because you would have to leave your SMN meleeing for 1min to get 100TP consuming 8ish~Mp/tic depending on gear.

I was really dissapointed when I found out the melee BP didn't use TP, but I'd rather they not use it and do good damage anyway. Having to build TP means you're restricted to keeping a specific avatar out which means you're losing access to other abilites. Garuda has a "good" buff and a heal and a good attack pact, but aside from her, theres not really one avatar you'll WANT to keep out.

SMN melee damage on an XP mob is very weak, and is another reason I wouldn't want to HAVE to build TP. I think in the 50's to 60's keeping Fenrir out, doing howl + growl + an attack BP in a PLed party I was doing maybe 1/4-1/3 of a meleer's damage. With BRD + RDM etc. I could stay standing for quite a few fights but eventually I'd have to sit some out. Ecliptic Howl didn't parse too spectacularly and as we went up in levels it just got to the point where it wasn't really doing anything and eventually with sushi people start hitting 95% accuracy cap anyway. Other than howl I can't think of any avatar buff thats worth my time to do in XP.

If they split timers, I think it's one step in the right direction, but I think things like Crimson Howl and Hastega need to have longer duration, enthunder damage and duration seems weak, ice spikes as well. BRD + SMN support isn't always going to let you keep even just hastega up and heal, and as soon as you add a RDM, hastega goes out the window. Crimson Howl... lol.

[Faranim]

lol @ people defending SMN.

Honestly the only thing SMN is "good" for is Wyrms and stuff like Jailer of Temperance. They're out-classes by other jobs virtually anywhere else.

That's not to say that they aren't useful. They're awesome in tank parties for Healing Ruby + Stoneskin. They still deal respectable DD on any mob in the game (they're the only job with access to Piercing/Blunt/Slashing and Magic damage all at once). They can do neat stuff like eat EES in Dynamis or disrupt spells. IMO they're an incredibly well-rounded job that can find their place in any situation with any sized group.

But for the job-elitists, SMN has no place except Wyrms right now. Even with reduced or separate BP timers, they won't suddenly become better than the alternatives (real Melees or real BLMs) due to MP limitations.

[Khamsin]

It's more like "I'm better than you!!!! Use everything at your disposal, and I'm still better than you!!!! But only on mobs that have too much HP to nuke down with your MP pool, and resist sleep a lot!!!!"

But you're still adjusting the playground to you benefit.

No more than a BLM adjusts the playgroud to their benefit when saying BLM > SMN.

Low HP + easily sleepable mobs = BLM playground.
High HP + difficult to sleep mobs = SMN playground.

You're gonna have to adjust the playground to one or the other before you state which is better than the other, because to say BLM always > SMN is as much of a lie as SMN always > BLM. SMN > BLM on Hydra and Cerberus, for example. BLM > SMN on KB and Fafnir, for example. In timed fights or against multiple mobs, BLM is better. A SMN is not affected by mobs with nasty moves and magic or enfeeble resist rates. If time is not a factor, a SMN can solo just about anything safely. A BLM can solo some of that quicker, and other things they just simply can't touch while a SMN could wear it down after a while.

They both have their merits, and have specific advantages in their respective playgrounds.

[epigram]

Piercing/Blunt/Slashing and Magic damage all at once

Straight off the bat, BLU has access to all of these at the same time.
BST with a hecteye pet or lolworm also does.

Many jobs /BST have access to this with a hecteye pet or any pet.

I understand what your saying, but the statement isn't correct.