More upcoming job changes (not from Fanfes)

[Tordall]

On beastmaster I outdamage most Wars without a jug pet. The rest of your gear makes a huge difference.

On Bst/nin using a CC I typically beat most 'AH wars' by 40%. Parsed against wars with the same calibur gear I'm nearly identical against Axe/Joy Wars.

Beastmaster really is the hidden DD class. I gave up on getting people to accept it as such though and leveled war for quick merit party invites where I could watch TV. I can't watch TV and play bard in a Merit party.

My Warrior (Man/joy or Wood/Joy) parses slightly lower than my beastmaster (Man/Wood) using CourierCarries as jugs. Pretty much the same gear on both jobs, but dusk feet on bst vs. AF+1 feet on war, and jugs/food instead of the bomb core on war.

[layoneil]

You don't want to change the entire balance of the game, do you?

you mean like when they nerfed RNG?

All of a sudden letting DRGs, SAMs, DRKs, THFs, etc. outparse WARs (minus the souleater+kraken routine) when before they didn't would just piss a lot of people off, and you'd be putting a ridill WAR in the old DRG position. You aren't really making anything better.

All of a sudden every DRG you know has killed Hydra enough times to have +1 Hydra gear, every SAM you know has a Futsuno, every DRK you know has a Bahamut's Zaghnal and every THF you know has a Perseus's Harpe?

you make it better by not locking one of the best items in the game to the NQ version of a real HNM that can be killed by less than 12 people.

so its still entirely possible that a WAR without the best gear will fall behind a SAM with the best gear.

that's what i was saying, none of the weapons are going to automatically outparse Ridill WARs by engaging. all of them will still have to work for it.

---

Because people can now exp on things harder than deco weapons.
Ninja edit: Ule range is different, not harder. Still VT to low IT.

i still have no idea what you're talking about. ToAU is not much higher level than Ule if at all. you just get better XP because of the Sanction Bonus.

Insanely equipped warriors and monks with excellent support and several Soul Voices over the course of the fight is how you kill Kirin in 9 minutes... once every 2 hours.

and each Ridill you put on the WARs make it easier. and right now DRKs (without Krakens), SAMs, DRGs and THFs would be really hard pressed to do the same thing.

My group tends to do this quite frequently with, at most, 1 Ridill. Sometimes *GASP* not even that.

and each Ridill you put on the WARs make it easier.

Then they'll just go bandwagon something else that looks like it can be popular without benefit of playing smart. "Lesser" jobs can do just fine in exp, the last time I parsed a merit party I got outparsed by a loldrg. Making everyone superhumans that can trio KB isn't the solution.

until you can list more SAMs on your server with Futsuno than you can list WARs with Ridills, STFU about "everyone".

what is so jackass-ish about DRKs, SAMs, DRGs and THFs putting up Ridill WAR/NIN like damage with equally rare items?

Nothing, but you're not talking about that.

amazing how you know what i'm talking about more than me, when i'm the one talking about it.

I'm also tied to one, maybe two, subjob choices. That really limits what I can do in terms of overall alliance usefulness. It makes me really effective at ONE thing. Spamming Rampage. I can't trick hate, I can't chain with versitility.

fortunate though that one of the SJs you're tied to (/NIN) has almost no need to Trick hate in most situations.

A drk with a scythe that can double attack 50+ percent of the time and still be /thf?

that's where the higher delay, lack of dual wield trait and 60 or so DMG comes in. it's not a 90+ DMG Scyte the DRK will be using with SATA.

that's why Futsuno and Persues is twice and not 2-3. that's why the Spear would have to be HQ'd to be 2-3.

[NynJa]

On beastmaster I outdamage most Wars without a jug pet. The rest of your gear makes a huge difference.

On Bst/nin using a CC I typically beat most 'AH wars' by 40%. Parsed against wars with the same calibur gear I'm nearly identical against Axe/Joy Wars.

Beastmaster really is the hidden DD class. I gave up on getting people to accept it as such though and leveled war for quick merit party invites where I could watch TV. I can't watch TV and play bard in a Merit party.

My Warrior (Man/joy or Wood/Joy) parses slightly lower than my beastmaster (Man/Wood) using CourierCarries as jugs. Pretty much the same gear on both jobs, but dusk feet on bst vs. AF+1 feet on war, and jugs/food instead of the bomb core on war.

I LOLD SO HARD HERE

So you're saying that you beat "AH wars" by 40% ??
So, lets say you're in a brd whm rdm war war bst party...
Both War's are doing 20% each, and you're doing 60% ??

YEAH OKKKKKKKKKKK

moron.

[Khamsin]

I think you missed the part where these 'god weapons' would be as hard to get as Ridill. Meaning not every sam/drg/thf/drk will be able to outparse Ridill war's...

The rarity isn't the point, the point is once everyone has these rare weapons, SAMs, DRGs, DRKs, THFs, etc. shouldn't be all of a sudden outparsing WARs. Comparable damage, sure, but not outparsing, or there should be a WAR buff to compensate for being at a disadvantage.

[Kyreth]

Actually, what I'd like to see are WARs with "Enhances weapon traits" on them as a job ability. All of them. Monster's weak against swords? Warrior gets an extra bonus using a sword. Clubs? Same deal. Anything a warrior can use, he could exploit monster weapon weaknesses. A few of these stacked traits and the WAR should have a reason to pack weapons based on the occasion and opponents, not just a single l33t set of mainhand/offhand.

Or heck, put it on a weapon. A H2H or club weapon that not only pwns bones, but crushes them like drywall. A bow or spear that punches through fliers like paper. Against monsters with no weakness to the weapon type, they're ordinary. Against the right types of monster, they become extraordinary. If WARs had the enhance weapon traits as well, they'd stack for even more goodness. Putting enhanced traits on weapons would also allow for monsters to be more DD specific and perhaps even give the "lesser" DD's more reasons to shine. After all, we all know Monks vs. bones = KRT winner. It'd be nice to see reasons for MNK's, SAM's or DRK's or even DRG's to have places in the top of the walk where they'll utterly shred a monster type- and warriors with their innate enhance traits be able to join in anywhere along with them.

[layoneil]

I LOLD SO HARD HERE

So you're saying that you beat "AH wars" by 40% ??
So, lets say you're in a brd whm rdm war war bst party...
Both War's are doing 20% each, and you're doing 60% ??

YEAH OKKKKKKKKKKK

moron.

do people that obssess over parsers have no comprehension of basic math? % is not a static unit.

BST 28%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that's outparsing each WAR by 40%.

BST 30%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that's outparsing each WAR by 50%.

BST 60%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that would be outparsing by 200%.

i'm not going to argue the logic of whether or not that kind of parser result can happen, but that's the math behind what he's saying.

[Eaglestrike]

I think you missed the part where these 'god weapons' would be as hard to get as Ridill. Meaning not every sam/drg/thf/drk will be able to outparse Ridill war's...

The rarity isn't the point, the point is once everyone has these rare weapons, SAMs, DRGs, DRKs, THFs, etc. shouldn't be all of a sudden outparsing WARs. Comparable damage, sure, but not outparsing, or there should be a WAR buff to compensate for being at a disadvantage.

Yeah, if they were 2% behind other jobs in a parse War would be at *such* a disadvantage! I mean, they suck vs HNM's (Steel Cyclone is weak) and can never tank (hi2u war/whm) and they wouldn't be able to rack in 12-15k+/hour parties because other jobs have weapons comparable to them...

Oh wait, they'd still be largely useful! The handful of other DD's with god weapons wouldn't be that common to find in exp, Ridill drops far more often than P.Harpe (there are what, 1-4 P.Harpe's per server? I've heard of people going 1/88 or some shit on that). And War also brings Provoke to an exp pt to voke adds off bards and offer basic hate control at the start of a fight, so they'd be invited to exp anyway (much like how I know a lot of people that still want a NIN tank even in 2brd parties just for that intro provoke nin's will do to keep it off the brd)

[layoneil]

The rarity isn't the point, the point is once everyone has these rare weapons, SAMs, DRGs, DRKs, THFs, etc. shouldn't be all of a sudden outparsing WARs. Comparable damage, sure, but not outparsing, or there should be a WAR buff to compensate for being at a disadvantage.

now you're on the right track. the patch after that will have a weapon dropped by Echidna that will allow WARs to get a Great Axe that will outparse Futsuno SAMs and the patch after will have a drop from Typhon that will outparse that Great Axe, etc, etc, etc.

[Senoska]

Fix to ridill issues and inballance in the game as well to 'lolgax,lolgswd,lolscythe etc' add a scythe, gax, polearm, gswd, etc[2 handed weapons] that can attack 2-3 times with GOOD DAMAGE that isnt controlled by the moon phase.

[Eaglestrike]

Too late to edit: But Berserk/Aggressor are really awesome for HNM fights, I wish I had such buffs to use (well, I do get Berserk if I can thf/war at an NM, but I still have to /nin at some things as I might take hate.)

[NynJa]

I LOLD SO HARD HERE

So you're saying that you beat "AH wars" by 40% ??
So, lets say you're in a brd whm rdm war war bst party...
Both War's are doing 20% each, and you're doing 60% ??

YEAH OKKKKKKKKKKK

moron.

do people that obssess over parsers have no comprehension of basic math? % is not a static unit.

BST 28%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that's outparsing each WAR by 40%.

BST 30%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that's outparsing each WAR by 50%.

BST 60%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that would be outparsing by 200%.

i'm not going to argue the logic of whether or not that kind of parser result can happen, but that's the math behind what he's saying.

I'm sorry, but when someone says they out parse someone by 40%, I'm pretty certain that most people here will think along the same lines I did.

[Eaglestrike]

I LOLD SO HARD HERE

So you're saying that you beat "AH wars" by 40% ??
So, lets say you're in a brd whm rdm war war bst party...
Both War's are doing 20% each, and you're doing 60% ??

YEAH OKKKKKKKKKKK

moron.

do people that obssess over parsers have no comprehension of basic math? % is not a static unit.

BST 28%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that's outparsing each WAR by 40%.

BST 30%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that's outparsing each WAR by 50%.

BST 60%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that would be outparsing by 200%.

i'm not going to argue the logic of whether or not that kind of parser result can happen, but that's the math behind what he's saying.

I'm sorry, but when someone says they out parse someone by 40%, I'm pretty certain that most people here will think along the same lines I did.

I used to, but it really makes no sense, so I don't anymore

[sweet]

I'm saying, instead of just McRidilling each type of weapon and calling it balance if you spend just a wee bit of time looking you'll find that each job can already do most of what you think they need a RidillPolearm or RidillDagger to do, just in their own way.

and each Ridill you put on the WARs make it easier.

It's all in how each specific alliance approaches things. We have alot of sams and blms so we chain/burst most everything, and it dies pretty damned fast. The answer to every end-game fight isn't "MORE RIDILLS!"

and each Ridill you put on the WARs make it easier. and right now DRKs (without Krakens), SAMs, DRGs and THFs would be really hard pressed to do the same thing.

I tend to think that a sam, if it were as loaded up with bard songs and buffs as those wars were, could have done just fine in that video. And, even it it didn't, why is that bad? I don't want my Sam to kill things like my War does. Then it's just a wannabe War. Simply because you can't InsertWeaponHereBurn things doesn't make a job class weak.

[layoneil]

I'm saying, instead of just McRidilling each type of weapon and calling it balance if you spend just a wee bit of time looking you'll find that each job can already do most of what you think they need a RidillPolearm or RidillDagger to do, just in their own way.

none of which would be able to do it subbing NIN. the problem has as much to do with Utsusemi being broken as the disparity between Dual Wield trait and the base weapon damage formula.

if WARs are tanking with /NIN they should be working a lot harder to hold hate off other jobs that are not /NIN.

I tend to think that a sam, if it were as loaded up with bard songs and buffs as those wars were, could have done just fine in that video. And, even it it didn't, why is that bad?

ask the SAMs and DRGs that's Lv 53 looking for PT.

ask the Lv 75 fully merited BLM if he was to level a melee job next what job it's going to be.

[Tordall]

I LOLD SO HARD HERE

So you're saying that you beat "AH wars" by 40% ??
So, lets say you're in a brd whm rdm war war bst party...
Both War's are doing 20% each, and you're doing 60% ??

YEAH OKKKKKKKKKKK

moron.

do people that obssess over parsers have no comprehension of basic math? % is not a static unit.

BST 28%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that's outparsing each WAR by 40%.

BST 30%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that's outparsing each WAR by 50%.

BST 60%, WAR 20%, WAR 20% - that would be outparsing by 200%.

i'm not going to argue the logic of whether or not that kind of parser result can happen, but that's the math behind what he's saying.

Yup. I'm not sure I'm gonna want to argue with him though. His avatar is Jugernaught, who is stuborn and dim-witted.

For the record, a good Axe/Ridill Warrior with appropriate supporting gear will outdamage an 'ah war' by 100%. That is they'll do 2000 damage for every 1000 damage the 'weaker' warrior does.

The numbers I quote are from looking at the per-fight-damage-output averaged over roughly 3 hours, multiple people running parsers so we can check against eachother in cases when one person is too far from the action to see some of the damage output in the chatlog.

From parses, I've seen a lot of stuff that I wouldn't expect. Axe/Ridill or Ridill/Joy are really the best ways for a warrior to do damage, but they can be beaten. Also, having a Ridill doesn't automatically make you a warrior god, you have to have the rest of the gear to support it. I've seen several ocasions where an poorly-equipt Axe/Ridill warrior has been outdamaged by a well-equipt Axe/Joy warrior.

On another topic, they do have weapons that are strong or weak against particular mobs. Flying mobs (litterally anything with wings) are weak to peircing damage, giving joyuese, daggers, polearms, etc a boost, but not boosting axes, sabers (including ridill), destroyers...

They have also added mobs that are flat-out immune to particular damage types. Those crabs in Limbus, and at least one of the ToAU notorious monsters are simply immune to slashing weapons.

[epigram]

For the record, a good Axe/Ridill Warrior with appropriate supporting gear will outdamage an 'ah war' by 100%. That is they'll do 2000 damage for every 1000 damage the 'weaker' warrior does.

I think that depends on how you define 'AH WAR.' If the war is 75 with no merits eatting sushi and the ridill war has full merits and top gear eatting meat, I would agree. Now, a meat eatting Full merit DA + Agressor dual axe war with good gear (adaberk/Haub+1, Byakko's Haidate, full +1 acc build) is not going to get doubled in damage by any ridill war.

But this whole topic is hitting the sticky above so I'll stop here.

[XaocRamuh]

ask the Lv 75 fully merited BLM if he was to level a melee job next what job it's going to be.

NIN :wink:

[Xavier]

WAR is as much or more of a pure DD job than MNK. MNK can heal themselves, remove status ailments on themselves, and chi blast, wars can.... use lots of different weapons. WARs are no more tanks than MNK, maybe less. MNK have higher base evasion, evasion ability, more HP, blocking, blocking trait, AND subbing WAR can take defender, which is really the only "tanking" thing wars get!

Just wanted to say you're retarded.

PLD have lower evasion, no evasion ability, less hp, a shield to block instead of guard, does that make them less of a tank than mnk? Higher base stats does not a tank make.

Warriors get provoke, warcry, defender, a defense bonus, and most importantly, they can sub ninja for shadows and not lose said provoke. They have full access to almost everything a pld wears, and war/whm has been proven to effectively tank HNMs for people.

What does a mnk do? They either sub ninja and lose any natural way to hold hate outside of meleeing, or they sub warrior, and pray they don't get killed in 3 shots by an HNM if counterstance fails, hi2u double attack from Tiamat for 700 each hit.

If you're endgame is Serket, then yeah, a MNK makes a fine tank. Before you open your mouth and call me biased, I have both jobs. I know MNK can tank in xp parties w/ counterstance, but I'd never rely on them for anything hard. I've tanked Fafnir on war/nin before, and I'd never consider it on mnk/war.

[shinobi_tabi]

Higher base stats does not a tank make.

Sup Yoda. May the force be with you.

[aurik]

You can tank fafnir as mnk/war, it has been done. However, with the back line job support it takes, you could probably also tank fafnir as smn/thf or something retarded

Especially with sushi for the accuracy boost, mnk can get extremely good counter rates which substitute for shadows. Whats your average war/nin evade vs. take on Fafnir? I bet I could get close to that using counter.