Job Adjustments: Summoner (03/10/2006)

[layoneil]

ok, so you can now BP twice in 1 minute.

where exactly are you going to rest mp ?? I'm no SMN, but I think BP's cost a lot of mp....

if you were stupid:
- Summon Titan
- Earthen Ward
- Rest 20 Seconds
- Summon Garuda
- Predator Claws
- Rest 20 Seconds

if you were smart:
- Summon Diabolos
- Dream Shroud
- Nether Blast
- Rest 40-50 seconds
- Repeat

and obivously like other mages, if you're hurting for MP, you cut out a few BPs. just because you can doesn't mean you should be doing it all the time.

[Toth]

Just wanted to chime in quick. This is definately a great step for SMNs and rather exciting to see how the dynamics of the job are going to be affected. We need to wait for data to prove anything though but thinking it over, I believe that the accuracy and duration bonuses will be dependant on how much higher you are over the cap when you receive the BP. For example, at 70, you receive the 70 BPs and you should have a capped 240ish skill. Now, for every point over the cap there, you get maybe a 1% Accuracy Bonus (and maybe 1-2 sec duration buff). Therefore, you could realistically get a 101% accuracy bonus if you had max summoning skill of 341. Personally, I hope to see consistent damage on IT mobs, one of SMN's biggest problems. Also, this update have the potential to make the 75 BPs and magical BPs much more effective if they hit 100% of the time.

As for no other jobs getting updates, I bet there will be a few changes in the patch for some abilities of various jobs. Not major ones but subtle. I am still hoping the PUP will get something (JSE or a hand to hand boost or just adjusting the weaponskills of the matons!) and given that there was no indication before last patch that PUPs were getting Howling Fist and Dragon Kick, I am hopeful something good may be coming.

[Eltia]

While SE said this SMN update is the last job adjustment for the next patch, I have a feeling other jobs will get an adjustment too in the form of new equipment. (PUP and BLU in particular.)

[Dustybrown]

This was my take on the update. At first I thought it was great they were splitting the bloodpacts up helping make SMN a little more diverse. They could heal/buff and they could throw out a DD BP too. However, the more I thought about it the more unimpressed I became.

Now, I'm no summoner so forgive me if I don't understand the job in full detail. I was under the impression that pre-70 most of the PTs a summoner got was on the basis they would be the main healer. If that's the case, then I can't see why a SMN would waste MP on sub-par damage dealing, which they may need to keep someone alive. The timers may be separate, but the MP usage isn't worth the damage. Also, I was under the impression 1-70 was the most difficult time to level as a SMN because there were better healers out there and better DD's. By splitting the timer I don't see how it particularly benefits what the job is bringing to a party which will increase invite rate. People will still rather have a BLM to DD and a WHM to heal. I can see the definite benefit 70+ when they get some good DDing BP's, making the MP usage worth it and I would guess this continues into meripo parties.

I also thought about endgame. If the DDing bps wouldn't be much used in pre70 parties, I hardly see the buffs being used at endgame. If the SMN are all in a party together with a bard I don't see them needing things like haste, stoneskin, or anything else - they shouldn't ever get hate. It may allow SMNs to be put in melee PTs or BLM PTs for things like Hastega and Dream Shroud, but even then a RDM hasting a melee is better than the weak haste from Hastega. I definitely see the benefit of being able to do something like Dream Shroud as well as not wasting that BP which can be used for damage. However, I don't see it as particularly groundbreaking. I really can't imagine SMNs suddenly being used in a more diverse set up like (god, I don't know...) tank parties for Stoneskin + DD BP or Melee PTs for Hastega + DD BP simply because the tank PT probably don't want to "waste" the slot and RDMs can haste the melee better than a SMN can.

As for the SMN magic skill boost, that should have been the way it worked from day 1. As the other magic skills affect other jobs (Blue magic, enfeebling, healing magic), so should summoning magic affect BP. Good move, but long long long overdue.

So that's how I see it. Apologies if I've grossly misunderstood the SMN job.

[spooky]

Just because this is it for Jobs in this update, I still expect some big things on the way - new gear, zones, missions, quests, BC style fights, etc.
I think overall this update will win big, even if they don't fix everything all at once now.

[Vobent]

People said that for last update.

[Lithiani]

ok, so you can now BP twice in 1 minute.

where exactly are you going to rest mp ?? I'm no SMN, but I think BP's cost a lot of mp....

if you were stupid:
- Summon Titan
- Earthen Ward
- Rest 20 Seconds
- Summon Garuda
- Predator Claws
- Rest 20 Seconds

if you were smart:
- Summon Diabolos
- Dream Shroud
- Nether Blast
- Rest 40-50 seconds
- Repeat

and obivously like other mages, if you're hurting for MP, you cut out a few BPs. just because you can doesn't mean you should be doing it all the time.

It strikes me that certain combinations of Blood Pact stacking will definitely favour certain Avatars over others.

The three combinations that spring to mind are Diablos (Dream Shroud > Nether Blast, as you pointed out), Ifrit (Crimson Howl > Flame Crush, and much improved if Crimson Howl will get an entire 3 minute duration and/or increased attack), and Fenrir (Ecliptic Howl > Eclipse Bite, towards Full Moon when accuracy is increased).

If the above works well, it'll be nice to see Ifrit get some use.

[Kael]

Well the couple of SMNs in my LS will probably LOVE this update.

[kagomea]

and when you need to use a powered up melee attack!

Ifrit uses Crimson Howl
Ifrit using Flaming Crush

:3 finally, something to make crimson howl more usable XD

[Vobent]

I hope /smn gets a good use out of this too.
When meriting on my WHM with my LS sometimes do a enthunder, would help if they increased the duration of it.


I know its small damage, but when you got a pimped haste NIN, double march, and haste that 1DMG each hit adds up, faster.

Not to mention the other DDs.

Oh and shining ruby on wyrms as mentioned before.

[chiz]

Haven't tested it but I'm told hastega is weaker than haste for one, not just shorter duration. However haste isn't the only reason for a mage in the main party, in fact a RDM or WHM can haste the tanks from outside the party so you don't even need a mage there, just brds for erase, but the main reason is to have heals available and Cure III from a summoner just doesn't cut it.

Not sure if its weaker or not, I just know its rarely used because 1) duration sucks and 2) it uses what could be a DD BP. Depending on how much Summoning Skill enhances the effect of BP, this update could potentially solve both of those problems.

Your argument for having a RDM or WHM in the PT is contradictory, since a SMN can erase and heal better than a BRD and in many instances having an outside PT of healers just isn't feasible (BCNMs). Unless you're fielding a full-blown Zergforce, the chances of having a healing group with BRD+WHM+RDM are pretty small.

Spring Water doesn't do erasega, and by the time you get leviathan out, in position and spring water off a WHM would have simply paralynaed the melee, not to mention walking into ululation range in the first place is retarded. And again, if you're the only one not petrified, you'll want cure IV/V on the tanks, not to spend half an hour dicking around trying to get leviathan out and in position.

Maybe not erasega, but ya, as others said anything that has a specific status spell would be erased. Perfect for Hurricane Wing (blindna + heals), breakga, paralyzga, etc. Again, SMN isn't there to main heal, they're there to supplement. SMN can't cast cure IV/V anyways as you've pointed out numerous times and no, they're cure III isn't going to do much. They're always going to be out of AoE range (or should be at least), so if they are the only one that isn't petrified, yes, they'd be much better off stona'ing the entire PT so that the real healers could do their job of healing, right?

The benefit is small enough it's not worthwhile. Why give 4 BLM 8% more agro when you can take a 5th BLM for 25% more damage?

They wouldn't be there simply to buff BLMs, they'd also be able to deal damage with their offensive Blood Pacts. Depends on how you fight a mob, but you can make more with what you have or you can Zerg stuff with just more. That's why some people bother to SC and some don't. And if 8% isn't worthwhile, why do BLMs obsess over shit like Novio's +7 MAB? Not sure how you many of your BLMs like to play "main healer", but I'm pretty sure SMN does a better job even with their gimpy Cure III and Curaga II.

Can be done already by a WHM/SMN, but often isn't because it's not a huge benefit.

Again, I don't know the specifics of its effectiveness as main/sub, but I'm told its worthwhile provided it doesn't interfere with a job's main responsibilities. For WHM its the same reason AA isn't use often, it takes time to cast and it takes a substantial amount of MP, both of which could be used doing what they do best, heal.

[Kenai]

This was my take on the update. At first I thought it was great they were splitting the bloodpacts up helping make SMN a little more diverse. They could heal/buff and they could throw out a DD BP too. However, the more I thought about it the more unimpressed I became.

Now, I'm no summoner so forgive me if I don't understand the job in full detail. I was under the impression that pre-70 most of the PTs a summoner got was on the basis they would be the main healer. If that's the case, then I can't see why a SMN would waste MP on sub-par damage dealing, which they may need to keep someone alive. The timers may be separate, but the MP usage isn't worth the damage. Also, I was under the impression 1-70 was the most difficult time to level as a SMN because there were better healers out there and better DD's. By splitting the timer I don't see how it particularly benefits what the job is bringing to a party which will increase invite rate. People will still rather have a BLM to DD and a WHM to heal. I can see the definite benefit 70+ when they get some good DDing BP's, making the MP usage worth it and I would guess this continues into meripo parties.

I also thought about endgame. If the DDing bps wouldn't be much used in pre70 parties, I hardly see the buffs being used at endgame. If the SMN are all in a party together with a bard I don't see them needing things like haste, stoneskin, or anything else - they shouldn't ever get hate. It may allow SMNs to be put in melee PTs or BLM PTs for things like Hastega and Dream Shroud, but even then a RDM hasting a melee is better than the weak haste from Hastega. I definitely see the benefit of being able to do something like Dream Shroud as well as not wasting that BP which can be used for damage. However, I don't see it as particularly groundbreaking. I really can't imagine SMNs suddenly being used in a more diverse set up like (god, I don't know...) tank parties for Stoneskin + DD BP or Melee PTs for Hastega + DD BP simply because the tank PT probably don't want to "waste" the slot and RDMs can haste the melee better than a SMN can.

As for the SMN magic skill boost, that should have been the way it worked from day 1. As the other magic skills affect other jobs (Blue magic, enfeebling, healing magic), so should summoning magic affect BP. Good move, but long long long overdue.

So that's how I see it. Apologies if I've grossly misunderstood the SMN job.

The changes to summoning skill could not just affect the duration, but the POTENCY of things like Hastega, and Earthen Ward. Or the potency/duration of buffs, to stack multiple buffs at once and make them owrth the MP by not having to reapply them. And then you throw in a DD BP ON TOP of that, because it's on a seperate timer. If you don't have the mp to do it, you don't.

This update for SMN could be seriously huge, don't be so negative just yet...

[Jeryhn]

I hope /smn gets a good use out of this too.
When meriting on my WHM with my LS sometimes do a enthunder, would help if they increased the duration of it.


I know its small damage, but when you got a pimped haste NIN, double march, and haste that 1DMG each hit adds up, faster.

Not to mention the other DDs.

Oh and shining ruby on wyrms as mentioned before.

Well, a /SMN will have the option of doing a Bloodpact: Rage in addition to their Ward use. Although your avatar will only be level 37 doing it.

[Ryany]

Originally, calling forth an avatar would sometimes improve a player's summoning magic skill. Soon players will also be able to experience increases in skill when using the Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward pet commands.

Translation: Summoners will now needlessly summon avatars that drain mp in order to get skill ups when they should be main healing. I think perpetuation cost should be eliminated completely to fix summoner for xp parties. Then, just compensate for the elemental staves by giving them a hidden accuracy or attack avatar boost when the proper one is equipped.

I'm glad that my summon skill is higher than normal since I soloed bombs 69-75.

[Samhain]

First time post so please don't flame but I think I have a valid question for this.

Since adding skill over the cap of the smn lvl will add to BP timer/effect of defensive BP's what could this do for whm/smn? I.E. whm/smn equips say smn torque, earring, and nashira feet for use with carbuncle shining ruby to stack with P5/S5 and barspells with merits and equips at a wyrm fight. Would it seem like a worth while investment and worthy of using whm/smn in tank party simply for this aspect.

[Vobent]

I hope /smn gets a good use out of this too.
When meriting on my WHM with my LS sometimes do a enthunder, would help if they increased the duration of it.


I know its small damage, but when you got a pimped haste NIN, double march, and haste that 1DMG each hit adds up, faster.

Not to mention the other DDs.

Oh and shining ruby on wyrms as mentioned before.

Well, a /SMN will have the option of doing a Bloodpact: Rage in addition to their Ward use. Although your avatar will only be level 37 doing it.

Gogo resisted thunderspark oh boy, I hope it paralyzes!

[Eltia]

I think Dream Shroud > Nether Blast would be a decent because you can amplify the effectiveness of the avatar's TP. Combining with merit points, 700s nether blast every 50s seconds is good.

Fenrir would be pretty decent when moon phase is near Full Moon. Since you can get decent stats boost from both Ecliptic Growl and Ecliptic Howl and you can keep Fenrir out longer (Fenrir's perpectual cost is 2nd lowest).

[Aodh]

Originally, calling forth an avatar would sometimes improve a player's summoning magic skill. Soon players will also be able to experience increases in skill when using the Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward pet commands.

Translation: Summoners will now needlessly summon avatars that drain mp in order to get skill ups when they should be main healing. I think perpetuation cost should be eliminated completely to fix summoner for xp parties. Then, just compensate for the elemental staves by giving them a hidden accuracy or attack avatar boost when the proper one is equipped.

I'm glad that my summon skill is higher than normal since I soloed bombs 69-75.

Carby with the right gear still gives me auto-refresh. Just depends how fast the skillup's come.

[Kenai]

Originally, calling forth an avatar would sometimes improve a player's summoning magic skill. Soon players will also be able to experience increases in skill when using the Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward pet commands.

Translation: Summoners will now needlessly summon avatars that drain mp in order to get skill ups when they should be main healing. I think perpetuation cost should be eliminated completely to fix summoner for xp parties. Then, just compensate for the elemental staves by giving them a hidden accuracy or attack avatar boost when the proper one is equipped.

I'm glad that my summon skill is higher than normal since I soloed bombs 69-75.

If the pt sucks so bad that they won't even survive long enough for the SMN to pull off an Aerial Armor/Earthen Ward/Spring Water/Fenrir buff, then it's sure as hell not the SMN's fault. A good pt with a good SMN should give the SMN enough time to summon, but at the same time not be neglectful of healing duties.

[Lithiani]

Originally, calling forth an avatar would sometimes improve a player's summoning magic skill. Soon players will also be able to experience increases in skill when using the Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward pet commands.

Translation: Summoners will now needlessly summon avatars that drain mp in order to get skill ups when they should be main healing. I think perpetuation cost should be eliminated completely to fix summoner for xp parties. Then, just compensate for the elemental staves by giving them a hidden accuracy or attack avatar boost when the proper one is equipped.

I'm glad that my summon skill is higher than normal since I soloed bombs 69-75.

Eliminating the perp cost would just mean they would be forced to heal more in XP PTs, which is what most SMNs get emo about.