Job Adjustments: Summoner (03/10/2006)

[Jeryhn]

First time post so please don't flame but I think I have a valid question for this.

Since adding skill over the cap of the smn lvl will add to BP timer/effect of defensive BP's what could this do for whm/smn? I.E. whm/smn equips say smn torque, earring, and nashira feet for use with carbuncle shining ruby to stack with P5/S5 and barspells with merits and equips at a wyrm fight. Would it seem like a worth while investment and worthy of using whm/smn in tank party simply for this aspect.

If the WHM has SMN to 75, they could merit the full 18 points to summoning skill as well. Since the skill caps pretty low at that level, having an abundance of extra skill points could turn Shining Ruby into a Bloodpact you cast every 5 minutes rather than 3. Needs testing.

This all is also assuming the the extra skill won't effect the potency either.

[Larrieux]

Originally, calling forth an avatar would sometimes improve a player's summoning magic skill. Soon players will also be able to experience increases in skill when using the Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward pet commands.

Translation: Summoners will now needlessly summon avatars that drain mp in order to get skill ups when they should be main healing. I think perpetuation cost should be eliminated completely to fix summoner for xp parties. Then, just compensate for the elemental staves by giving them a hidden accuracy or attack avatar boost when the proper one is equipped.

I'm glad that my summon skill is higher than normal since I soloed bombs 69-75.

Eliminating the perp cost would just mean they would be forced to heal more in XP PTs, which is what most SMNs get emo about.

Not necessarily. If they eliminated perp cost and made perp gear decrease mp needed to cast BPs it just mean smn would leave avatar out and it would melee till BP timers were up. They have more mp to slap heals on ppls.

[Scythiroth]

Removing perpetuation cost makes a lot of gear useless, more than just staves. They won't do that, ever.

[Dustybrown]

This update for SMN could be seriously huge, don't be so negative just yet...

This is SE. I like to throw caution to the wind and be hugely pessimistic about any changes so on the chance they are good and benefit a job or whatever, I'm pleasantly surprised and happy about it rather than getting all excited and having my hopes crushed. Dear god, I hope that didn't sound too Flux like >.>

As I said, the SMN magic skill improvement is good, long overdue. However knowing how SE are, I can't really imagine that having a ton of + skill is going to increase things by that much, especially in endgame (think RDMs and enfeebling magic skill... the eg that a BRD can land silence on Kirin and a RDM with full merits and AF2 can't...)

Having split bloodpacts in endgame does open up a series of diversity and options, but I'm gonna go ahead and guess it depends on whether linkshells utilize summoner buffs as well as damage BPs. SE don't seem to be addressing anything that improves the leveling grind at all. But it would definitely be nice to be proved wrong.

[Alporhan]

I'm happy that they're changing summoner. It was a phreaking pain trying to go to 75 main healing taru PLDs w/ like more MP than my RDM but less HP than my SMN with only access to cure 3.

I hope this will open the door to some people giving SMN more a chance in PTs, where as now all I use it for is kirin and wyrms. Now they can keep buffs up and DD well.

All I wanna know is how much I can sell the 10k summoning torque I bought a year ago for :D

[inafume]

That's why some people bother to SC and some don't. And if 8% isn't worthwhile, why do BLMs obsess over shit like Novio's +7 MAB?

The 8% is worthwhile to each individual BLM. But the point was that you would be replacing (possibly) another BLM. So if you had 5 BLM + BRD/RDM/COR and replaced a BLM with a SMN, you'd be losing roughly 20% of your BLM damage yet only replacing it with an 8% per BLM gain (which will only recoup 6.4% of the lost damage due to one less BLM).

[Aodh]

Since the skill caps pretty low at that level, having an abundance of extra skill points could turn Shining Ruby into a Bloodpact you cast every 5 minutes rather than 3.

Any +SMN skill would bring summoning magic over cap assuming their skill is at least that of a lv37 SMN. But it's an interesting point, we don't know how they'll treat /SMN in terms of this bonus. My best guess is that it looks at main job to determine when the bonus activates in relation to skill, but we won't know till it's released.

[Kenai]

This update for SMN could be seriously huge, don't be so negative just yet...

This is SE. I like to throw caution to the wind and be hugely pessimistic about any changes so on the chance they are good and benefit a job or whatever, I'm pleasantly surprised and happy about it rather than getting all excited and having my hopes crushed. Dear god, I hope that didn't sound too Flux like >.>

As I said, the SMN magic skill improvement is good, long overdue. However knowing how SE are, I can't really imagine that having a ton of + skill is going to increase things by that much, especially in endgame (think RDMs and enfeebling magic skill).

Having split bloodpacts in endgame does open up a series of diversity and options, but I'm gonna go ahead and guess it depends on whether linkshells utilize summoner buffs as well as damage BPs. SE don't seem to be addressing anything that improves the leveling grind at all. But it would definitely be nice to be proved wrong.

Understandable, but while this is SE, it's not the CoP team. We really don't know, it's at worst a good update, at best a huge mega awesome update.

[chiz]

That's why some people bother to SC and some don't. And if 8% isn't worthwhile, why do BLMs obsess over shit like Novio's +7 MAB?

The 8% is worthwhile to each individual BLM. But the point was that you would be replacing (possibly) another BLM. So if you had 5 BLM + BRD/RDM/COR and replaced a BLM with a SMN, you'd be losing roughly 20% of your BLM damage yet only replacing it with an 8% per BLM gain (which will only recoup 6.4% of the lost damage due to one less BLM).

And my counter point was that separating offensive and defensive/enhancing BPs makes up the difference, MP dependent of course. In many of these fights we're talking about, a SMN can do as much or more than a BLM with an offensive BP, they just lack the ability to crank out the damage in a very short amount of time due to BP timers.

[Eltia]

Interesting change: Dual BP timer, which allows combination of some BPs for amplified effect.
The way it should be since Day 1: Summon skill level up during BP.
What we need: Ways to keep avatars out longer and reduce BP setup time.
Potential SE marketing scam: Summon skill level affects BP potency.
Bonus: Better incentive to use /SMN.

[Jeryhn]

This is SE. I like to throw caution to the wind and be hugely pessimistic about any changes so on the chance they are good and benefit a job or whatever, I'm pleasantly surprised and happy about it rather than getting all excited and having my hopes crushed. Dear god, I hope that didn't sound too Flux like >.>

The fact that you show remorse for your comments mean you haven't yet teetered over the edge of Fluxdom. Have faith good man!

As I said, the SMN magic skill improvement is good, long overdue. However knowing how SE are, I can't really imagine that having a ton of + skill is going to increase things by that much, especially in endgame (think RDMs and enfeebling magic skill... the eg that a BRD can land silence on Kirin and a RDM with full merits and AF2 can't...)

Comparing updates such as this to enfeebling skill is hard, because I don't think Square intends for enfeebles to land every time, otherwise many NMs would be easier than they currently are. Instead, try comparing it to elemental skill... A BLM can easily make a choice between a full skill setup to reduce resists, or a full INT/MAB setup to maximize damage. It all depends on whatever you're fighting.

[Aodh]

I can't really imagine that having a ton of + skill is going to increase things by that much, especially in endgame (think RDMs and enfeebling magic skill...

Right now there is very little that SMN can do to improve their performance in a party, having SMN skill provide a signifigant benifit means that there's something for us to add into our MP heavy gear mix. But you're right in that we don't know what it does yet so it's hard to speculate or plan how good it will be. But any improvement is something we didn't have before, and the way they did this they were careful not to nerf anything in the process. It's all a bonus.

[Jimmayus]

I'm gonna say it right now, Sacrifice Torque > Summoning Torque, I almost guarantee it. For buffs maybe not but if you don't have the sacrifice torque already then you fail the summoner game, and since it will probably be better that's half of summoning torques' usefulness gone.

That being said, small increments of +smn magic skill will have to make a huge difference to seriously merit taking off AF2. For example, yeah there's Nashira Crackows but is it really likely that they'll be > AF2 boots? It seems really improbable. Likewise for Evoker's horn to be good it would have to be > -3 BP timer. However that is solved by buying a penance hat so no problem there I guess.

My point is, summoning magic is cool and all but aside from a few select places (earring, back), I really really doubt it will make such a significant difference that you would switch it out. Right now with capped skill I already have +20, and if it's seriously worth my time +3 more from penance hat and then there earring/back piece, which is already up to +31 skill. Other than those places (and I guess Bahamut's Staff) I highly doubt the minute increases in skill will seriously make a big enough difference to be excited over.

The 2 BP timer thing is nifty but I bet it's eventually going to feel almost the same. It's basically impractical for exp grind, and those BP combos you guys are drooling over are MP intensive, and I bet the MP spent on those would be better suited to just doing another offensive BP, which since you are logical and not retarded you BP'ed in a smart combination of BP timer down and offensive bonuses instead of the more than likely stupid max summoning magic skill setup. In the end, unless for instance this update turns Ifrit and Fenrir into Jesus, it's going to have only a relatively small effect, if any. Thanks for the eye candy, now give me Phoenix and a set of buffs seriously worth using.\

ninja edit: proofreading is fun

[Kenai]

I'm gonna say it right now, Sacrifice Torque > Summoning Torque, I almost guarantee it. For buffs maybe not but if you don't have the sacrifice torque already then you fail the summoner game, and since it will probably be better that's half of summoning torques' usefulness gone.

That being said, small increments of +smn magic skill will have to make a huge difference to seriously merit taking off AF2. For example, yeah there's Nashira Crackows but is it really likely that they'll be > AF2 boots? It seems really improbable. Likewise for Evoker's horn to be good it would have to be > -3 BP timer. However that is solved by buying a penance hat so no problem there I guess.

My point is, summoning magic is cool and all but aside from a few select places (earring, back), I really really doubt it will make such a significant difference that you would switch it out. Right now with capped skill I already have +20, and if it's seriously worth my time +3 more from penance hat and then there earring/back piece, which is already up to +31 skill. Other than those places (and I guess Bahamut's Staff) I highly doubt the minute increases in skill will seriously make a big enough difference to be excited over.

The 2 BP timer thing is nifty but I bet it's eventually going to feel almost the same. It's basically impractical for exp grind, and those BP combos you guys are drooling over are MP intensive, and I bet the MP spent on those would be better suited to just doing another offensive BP, which since you are logical and not retarded you BP'ed in a smart combination of BP timer down and offensive bonuses instead of the more than likely stupid max summoning magic skill setup. In the end, unless for instance this update turns Ifrit and Fenrir into Jesus, it's going to have only a relatively small effect, if any. Thanks for the eye candy, now give me Phoenix and a set of buffs seriously worth using.\

ninja edit: proofreading is fun

If Summoning skill started meaning as much to SMNs as Elemental skill did for BLMs, I daresay it would be that important. Besides, we would have more gear options now, and be able to wear one thing for usefulness if we couldn't get the othe, and theres always gear-swapping, Sacrifice Torque won't mean squat for the buff's potency/duration. Plus, we still won't be able to burn MP as fast as a BLM can, it's maybe the eqivalent of one Teir 3 nuke followed by one teir 4 nuke back to back. If a BLM has the MP for that then a SMN sure does.

[Eltia]

If you use spirits, summon skill gear is still a good thing. (But make sure you have AF2 pants though.)

The summon skill enhances BP potency deal is too vague at this point to see its true effect, for the type of enhancement and the magnitude for each BPs are unknown. I think it's better to hold on to our judgment for now. On the other hand, if you know which types of BP you are likely to use, merit points and BP specific gears maybe better ways to enhance BP potency.

[Septimus]

If square really wanted SMN to keep out their pets, they would make it so SMN could get Summoning Magic skill ups from your pet meleeing.

[Aodh]

In terms of spirits, I think I would be happy if similar to BLU spells, I could choose the spells that the spirits could casts. i.e. Restrict Wind Spirit to Silence and Gravity or just Aero IV to cast when it can.

[Khamsin]

I'm gonna say it right now, Sacrifice Torque > Summoning Torque, I almost guarantee it. For buffs maybe not but if you don't have the sacrifice torque already then you fail the summoner game, and since it will probably be better that's half of summoning torques' usefulness gone.

That being said, small increments of +smn magic skill will have to make a huge difference to seriously merit taking off AF2. For example, yeah there's Nashira Crackows but is it really likely that they'll be > AF2 boots? It seems really improbable. Likewise for Evoker's horn to be good it would have to be > -3 BP timer. However that is solved by buying a penance hat so no problem there I guess.

My point is, summoning magic is cool and all but aside from a few select places (earring, back), I really really doubt it will make such a significant difference that you would switch it out. Right now with capped skill I already have +20, and if it's seriously worth my time +3 more from penance hat and then there earring/back piece, which is already up to +31 skill. Other than those places (and I guess Bahamut's Staff) I highly doubt the minute increases in skill will seriously make a big enough difference to be excited over.

The 2 BP timer thing is nifty but I bet it's eventually going to feel almost the same. It's basically impractical for exp grind, and those BP combos you guys are drooling over are MP intensive, and I bet the MP spent on those would be better suited to just doing another offensive BP, which since you are logical and not retarded you BP'ed in a smart combination of BP timer down and offensive bonuses instead of the more than likely stupid max summoning magic skill setup. In the end, unless for instance this update turns Ifrit and Fenrir into Jesus, it's going to have only a relatively small effect, if any. Thanks for the eye candy, now give me Phoenix and a set of buffs seriously worth using.\

ninja edit: proofreading is fun

If Summoning skill started meaning as much to SMNs as Elemental skill did for BLMs, I daresay it would be that important. Besides, we would have more gear options now, and be able to wear one thing for usefulness if we couldn't get the other. And we still won't be able to burn MP as fast as a BLM can, it's maybe the eqivalent of one Teir 3 nuke followed by one teir 4 nuke back to back. If a BLM has the MP for that then a SMN sure does.

I doubt it will ever mean as much to SMN as elemental skill means to BLM.

For one, BLM need elemental skill to not get resisted. Beyond that, it doesn't boost their MAB. It's like accuracy, you only need enough to hit, any extra does nothing. But it is important especially on highly resistant HNMs, so a BLM will always have a need for +skill gear.

An underlevelled summoning skill will change nothing. Predator Claws and Spinning Dive will still hit the same as always, and SMN don't need it to do decent damage. However, unlike elemental skill or accuracy, having extra skill provides a bonus above and beyond the default damage or buff. It's not necessary, but having it will boost your avatar accuracy a little (according to the notes, though for all we know it could boost damage as well). Not having it won't cripple you, however, so it will not be required as elemental skill is with BLMs.

[Larkwynn]

If square really wanted SMN to keep out their pets, they would make it so SMN could get Summoning Magic skill ups from your pet meleeing.

Because the majority of us love people doing things they normally wouldn't be in the name of skill up >.>

[Eltia]

Actually that's a neat idea. Allow SMNs to junction spells to spirits like BLUs junction spells to themselves. If they allow SMNs to pick spells from their spirits like BPs, Light Spirit would be interesting.