Job Adjustments: Summoner (03/10/2006)

[Jeryhn]

I'm gonna say it right now, Sacrifice Torque > Summoning Torque, I almost guarantee it. For buffs maybe not but if you don't have the sacrifice torque already then you fail the summoner game, and since it will probably be better that's half of summoning torques' usefulness gone.

Do you use your Sacrifice Torque with Nether Blast? I think I would rather wait and see how summoning skill will effect Bloodpact: Rage. Sacrifice Torque might directly improve your damage, but if summoning skill over the cap (I have 310 smn skill with my current summoning skill gear and merits) effects attack and accuracy for both physical and magical Bloodpacts, the clear choice would be the summoning torque.

Otherwise, the Sacrifice Torque would be very good for a summoner who has not yet broken the skill per level cap.

[Kenai]

I'm gonna say it right now, Sacrifice Torque > Summoning Torque, I almost guarantee it. For buffs maybe not but if you don't have the sacrifice torque already then you fail the summoner game, and since it will probably be better that's half of summoning torques' usefulness gone.

That being said, small increments of +smn magic skill will have to make a huge difference to seriously merit taking off AF2. For example, yeah there's Nashira Crackows but is it really likely that they'll be > AF2 boots? It seems really improbable. Likewise for Evoker's horn to be good it would have to be > -3 BP timer. However that is solved by buying a penance hat so no problem there I guess.

My point is, summoning magic is cool and all but aside from a few select places (earring, back), I really really doubt it will make such a significant difference that you would switch it out. Right now with capped skill I already have +20, and if it's seriously worth my time +3 more from penance hat and then there earring/back piece, which is already up to +31 skill. Other than those places (and I guess Bahamut's Staff) I highly doubt the minute increases in skill will seriously make a big enough difference to be excited over.

The 2 BP timer thing is nifty but I bet it's eventually going to feel almost the same. It's basically impractical for exp grind, and those BP combos you guys are drooling over are MP intensive, and I bet the MP spent on those would be better suited to just doing another offensive BP, which since you are logical and not retarded you BP'ed in a smart combination of BP timer down and offensive bonuses instead of the more than likely stupid max summoning magic skill setup. In the end, unless for instance this update turns Ifrit and Fenrir into Jesus, it's going to have only a relatively small effect, if any. Thanks for the eye candy, now give me Phoenix and a set of buffs seriously worth using.\

ninja edit: proofreading is fun

If Summoning skill started meaning as much to SMNs as Elemental skill did for BLMs, I daresay it would be that important. Besides, we would have more gear options now, and be able to wear one thing for usefulness if we couldn't get the other. And we still won't be able to burn MP as fast as a BLM can, it's maybe the eqivalent of one Teir 3 nuke followed by one teir 4 nuke back to back. If a BLM has the MP for that then a SMN sure does.

I doubt it will ever mean as much to SMN as elemental skill means to BLM.

For one, BLM need elemental skill to not get resisted. Beyond that, it doesn't boost their MAB. It's like accuracy, you only need enough to hit, any extra does nothing. But it is important especially on highly resistant HNMs, so a BLM will always have a need for +skill gear.

An underlevelled summoning skill will change nothing. Predator Claws and Spinning Dive will still hit the same as always, and SMN don't need it to do decent damage. However, unlike elemental skill or accuracy, having extra skill provides a bonus above and beyond the default damage or buff. It's not necessary, but having it will boost your avatar accuracy a little (according to the notes, though for all we know it could boost damage as well). Not having it won't cripple you, however, so it will not be required as elemental skill is with BLMs.

Maybe, maybe not. We just don't know yet. If the +potency, +duration, +accuracy, whatever, is a BIG, NOTICABLE difference, then yes, it will matter. It even says that the type of bonus that you get for +skill would be dependant on the Blood Pact used. I will have to wait until the update just to see how big of a difference it is, of course, but saying it will be trivial and not worth it is no better than me saying it will make a real difference, because just like me, you don't know one way or the other. I'd actually compare it more to +Blue magic skill, since that +summoning skill might affect all BPs similar to how +blue magic affects BLU spells, but since I don't know much of anything about BLU, Ive left it alone.

[Khamsin]

Actually that's a neat idea. Allow SMNs to junction spells to spirits like BLUs junction spells to themselves. If they allow SMNs to pick spells from their spirits like BPs, Light Spirit would be interesting.

Well, the balance would be in that the more variety of spells you want your spirit to be able to cast, the less chance it has of casting any particular one.

e.g. you want your Air Spirit to be able to Silence, Gravity, and Aero IV, you set all 3 of those spells. But then it does them at random. If you want it to just keep something silenced, set only Silence and that's all it'll do.

Of course, they'll have to boost spirit innate enfeebling/elemental skill for that to actually be useful. I have no idea what equivalent enfeebling/elemental skill spirits have, but it isn't very high, and it isn't affected at all by summoning skill (yet... depending on if the update ninja patches that in for spirits, as well).

And to avoid the urge to set Light Spirit to just Curaga IV, they could give it Erase and -na spells so you have reason to have more than just Curaga set.

[Eltia]

Balancing would be a problem, because for instance, I can just junction CuragaIV to Light Spirit and have it spam the only spell that has been junctioned to it. SE probably won't allow this kind of thing to happen.

The "SE" way of fixing it would probably be to force Spirits to have more than one spells junctioned at all time and assign very low priority to the useful spells.

[Khamsin]

Balancing would be a problem, because for instance, I can just junction CuragaIV to Light Spirit and have it spam the only spell that has been junctioned to it. SE probably won't allow this kind of thing to happen.

The "SE" way of fixing it would probably be to force Spirits to have more than one spells junctioned at all time and assign very low priority to the useful spells.

Not if they still have spirits cast by the same rules as they do now. The only time how many spells you have equipped matters is when it has a choice of equal priority spells.

e.g. for Light Spirit, under normal conditions it will just do pro/shell/regen/haste. It won't randomly cast Curaga IV just because it can. It will Cure V/Curaga IV when people's HP drop beyond a certain point, depending on how many people have low HP.

Setting a Light Spirit to just Curaga IV would mean 90% of the time your spirit is doing nothing. As it is now, even being able to cast its full array of spells randomly, it will fairly reliably trigger a Curaga IV if everyone's HP is red. Usually, though, by the time you pop out a Light Spirit, the healers will usually have cured their parties out of red by then. But if, for some reason, they hadn't (or they were dead or out of MP), it wouldn't take long for your spirit to pop out a Curaga IV.

[Eltia]

...which would suck for support type spirits. Basically they will be burning MP at insane rate and not doing a thing 90% of the time.

[Jeryhn]

Crunched some numbers to try and guesstimate the impact of the update.
Here ya go:

Total Bloodpacts: 78
Likely Total Rages: 54
Likely Total Wards: 23
Unknown: 1

Per Avatar
Carbuncle: 3 Rages, 4 Wards
Fenrir: 4 Rages, 4 Wards
Ifrit: 8 Rages, 1 Ward
Shiva: 7 Rages, 2 Ward
Garuda: 6 Rages, 3 Wards
Titan: 8 Rages, 1 Ward
Ramuh: 7 Rages, 2 Wards
Leviathan: 7 Rages, 2 Wards
Diabolos: 4 Rages, 4 Wards, 1 Unknown

For clarification, I've guessed that since the Astral Flow and Meritable Bloodpacts deal direct magical damage, that they will be considered Rages. I also did not account for Diabolos' Cacodemonia in sorting it into a Rage or a Ward because I don't remember if it deals damage in addition to its Curse effect (and seeing as how we can't use it, it'd probably be pointless anyway), so it's been marked as "unknown".

As you can see from the numbers above, some avatars, like Ramuh and Titan, don't really benefit from the Timer Split, while others make out like bandits (Carbuncle, Fenrir, Diabolos, Garuda). For Ifrit, he might have a single Ward, but it could potentially be great to stack with Flaming Crush, so we'll have to wait and see.

[Sixtail]

...which would suck for support type spirits. Basically they will be burning MP at insane rate and not doing a thing 90% of the time.

Hell they do that now.

[Lithiani]

As you can see from the numbers above, some avatars, like Ramuh and Titan, don't really benefit from the Timer Split, while others make out like bandits (Carbuncle, Fenrir, Diabolos, Garuda). For Ifrit, he might have a single Ward, but it could potentially be great to stack with Flaming Crush, so we'll have to wait and see.

OK, Ramuh I'll grant you, but how is the ability to split up Earthen Ward and Mountain Buster not a good thing?

[Scythiroth]

Gives Titan some nice soloing potential.

[Jeryhn]

As you can see from the numbers above, some avatars, like Ramuh and Titan, don't really benefit from the Timer Split, while others make out like bandits (Carbuncle, Fenrir, Diabolos, Garuda). For Ifrit, he might have a single Ward, but it could potentially be great to stack with Flaming Crush, so we'll have to wait and see.

OK, Ramuh I'll grant you, but how is the ability to split up Earthen Ward and Mountain Buster not a good thing?

Because a 200 damage absorption Stoneskin isn't much really.
If the summoning skill update effects the potency on this Bloodpact, then Titan would because a much more attractive, albeit thonged, avatar.

[Aodh]

OK, Ramuh I'll grant you, but how is the ability to split up Earthen Ward and Mountain Buster not a good thing?

Edit: Misread the context, still valid overall. Any damage absorbsion is better than none and now it doesn't cost us the ability to do a DD bloodpact as well.

In some instances it's not a good thing, in others it's amazing. Ramuh with Chaotic Strike and not the ability to do Rolling Thunder/Chaotic Strike >.< just became a complete underdog. Same with Shiva Frost Armor/Rush. Garuda, Levithan, Titan, Fenrir, Carbuncle and Diabolos (just a little) have solidified them self to be the avatars of choice. Ifrit we'll have to see how much Warcry affects Flaming Crush before a verdict is rendered here.

[FFXIFlux]

(I have 310 smn skill with my current summoning skill gear and merits)

Have you actually put points into summoning skill merits already?

I wonder when they'll figure out that they're restricting people's job choices with merits and let you put points into as many different weapons and magic types as you want.

As you can see from the numbers above, some avatars, like Ramuh and Titan, don't really benefit from the Timer Split, while others make out like bandits (Carbuncle, Fenrir, Diabolos, Garuda).

Really changes nothing. You're just going to be unsummoning Titan after doing defensive and summoning Diabolos to do offensive as you're doing now.

Ifrit we'll have to see how much Warcry affects Flaming Crush before a verdict is rendered here.

It's 15? attack. I don't doubt it will help. But I doubt it will help much more than it would help a PC.

Same with Shiva Frost Armor/Rush. Garuda, Levithan, Titan, Fenrir, Carbuncle and Diabolos (just a little) have solidified them self to be the avatars of choice.

We've tried using shock spikes from Ramuh on hundred fists mobs. Doesn't help, it pretty much never procs. I don't know if frost armor will overwrite paralyze II or not but I don't see it go off very often either and the damage it does overall is negligeable.

[Tomino]

Sacrifice Torque is +Attack only, while Summoning Torque should be Acc+ and maybe more.
Also, I tested sacrifice and didnt see much of an increase in dmg output...

[Scythiroth]

Sacrifice Torque is +Attack only, while Summoning Torque should be Acc+ and maybe more.
Also, I tested sacrifice and didnt see much of an increase in dmg output...

I personally never bought it since my SMN doesn't get used much, but any increase in damage should be a good thing since there isn't much gear that helps it. I might get one eventually, just to try it out, but Summoning Torque might be more useful......once I cap my summoning magic. x.x

[Lithiani]

Well, given how often I see Earthen Ward in use (a lot), I'm going to have to say that having that and Mountain Buster is a good thing.

Yes, Ramuh and Shiva are certainly the weakest Avatars as regards Wards.

What I'm most interested in from this update is the suggestion that high levels of Summoning Magic skill will extend the duration of Crimson Howl. That pact has always given a very nice attack boost (higher than single Minuet), but the duration is cripplingly short. If Crimson Howl extends Duration into the 2 minute+ mark, it will be very pleasant to see in use.

[Jeryhn]

(I have 310 smn skill with my current summoning skill gear and merits)

Have you actually put points into summoning skill merits already?

I wonder when they'll figure out that they're restricting people's job choices with merits and let you put points into as many different weapons and magic types as you want.

I've had points put into summoning skill well before I even considered leveling RDM, back when SMN was my only job. I've yet to merit any enfeebling skill, never really needed it.

It's 15? attack. I don't doubt it will help. But I doubt it will help much more than it would help a PC.

Pretty sure its a percentage of your current attack, rather than a flat number. I'll confirm when I get home.

[Faranim]

I thought that Crimson Howl = Warcry? If you have a WAR in the PT do they stack, or cancel?

Also, aside from Spring Water I can't think of any other Leviathan Defensive BPs.

[Aodh]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Ifrit

Crimson Howl - Lv38 - MP84 - Ifrit enhances party's attack power by 15% for 25 seconds.

From Wiki. o.ob

[FFXIFlux]

Also, aside from Spring Water I can't think of any other Leviathan Defensive BPs.

I think he counted things that don't do damage as being "defensive" so Slowga would be the 2nd pact.

One thing that kinda ticked me off was that Shiva's sleep is dark based despite being an ice spell. Be a bit more useful if it was ice.