Aegis

[Khamsin]

I would say that a Relic Weapon helps the entire alliance because, you know, killing the mob is kinda what you're trying to do.

Only when the relic weapon is better than other weapons you could have, and enough that it justifies the cost. e.g. a WAR would never use Bravura over Ridill. And a DRG can use a Mezraq or something for nearly the same damage output.

Another point is that relic weapons (the few that actually do improve your damage versus other alternatives) only help you do more damage to kill faster. It doesn't allow you to do anything you couldn't before, other than continuing light/dark chains.

Aegis and horn allow you to do things you couldn't before, and make certain strategies viable that weren't before. They practicely give you completely new abilities. e.g. allowing a PLD to sub WAR and tank straight up rather than be /NIN, or allowing them to eat something like Citadel Buster rather than planning on sacrificing them, which allow you to approach a fight from a totally different angle. In some situations, aegis and horn can change an encounter as significantly as, say, a kite and nuke kirin vs a melee burn kirin.

[divisortheory]

Aegis and horn allow you to do things you couldn't before, and make certain strategies viable that weren't before. They practicely give you completely new abilities.

This made me lol really, really loud.

[Khamsin]

Aegis and horn allow you to do things you couldn't before, and make certain strategies viable that weren't before. They practicely give you completely new abilities.

This made me lol really, really loud.

Maybe you don't realize this, but this is why aegis and horn are considered "worth it", while relic weapons are not.

Relic weapons don't let you do anything new aside from continuing light/dark, which does little to change the strategy of a fight or open new avenues.

You're telling me that being able to go PLD/WAR and straight up tank hits for insignificant damage versus having to go /NIN doesn't allow you approach a fight differently, and open up options you never had before? Or the difference between not having enough refresh for a PLD to main heal himself versus having enough to make that a viable strat (or allowing BLMs to nuke continuously on time sensitive/mega-regen fights versus having to have multiple teams of BLM swap in), etc. doesn't "give you new abilities"?

Basically, what I mean by "new abilities" is that, unlike relic weapons, the horn and shield allow you to utilize new strategies only possible with those items. Relic weapons merely let you kill a little faster. A lot of items only help you do something a little better, but don't change the dynamics of a fight. You just shave a few minutes off the fight, but the mechanics of the encounter is much the same.

Shield and horn, however, have the potential to change the very mechanics of the fight, allowing you to try different things that are impossible otherwise.

[Titanss]

Someone asked about those PLDs being in full Koenig, answer is no, neither have feet (we're horribly unlucky with feet, we have a higher % drop on D. Ring than M. Feet)...

That being said, they both have AF1+1 feet, and I believe at that fight, they were both in 4/5 Koenig, though they vary it up depending on situation.

Ya I meant -the feet ok thx for answering. No Kaiser tho right?

[divisortheory]

Aegis and horn allow you to do things you couldn't before, and make certain strategies viable that weren't before. They practicely give you completely new abilities.

This made me lol really, really loud.

Maybe you don't realize this, but this is why aegis and horn are considered "worth it", while relic weapons are not.

Relic weapons don't let you do anything new aside from continuing light/dark, which does little to change the strategy of a fight or open new avenues.

You're telling me that being able to go PLD/WAR and straight up tank hits for insignificant damage versus having to go /NIN doesn't allow you approach a fight differently, and open up options you never had before? Or the difference between not having enough refresh for a PLD to main heal himself versus having enough to make that a viable strat (or allowing BLMs to nuke continuously on time sensitive/mega-regen fights versus having to have multiple teams of BLM swap in), etc. doesn't "give you new abilities"?

Basically, what I mean by "new abilities" is that, unlike relic weapons, the horn and shield allow you to utilize new strategies only possible with those items. Relic weapons merely let you kill a little faster. A lot of items only help you do something a little better, but don't change the dynamics of a fight. You just shave a few minutes off the fight, but the mechanics of the encounter is much the same.

Shield and horn, however, have the potential to change the very mechanics of the fight, allowing you to try different things that are impossible otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I understood what you were saying and I agree with you to some extent. But the wording just made me laugh, because of all the relics Aegis and Horn are the only two that don't grant new abilities, everything else does grant a completely new ability.

[Khamsin]

Aegis and horn allow you to do things you couldn't before, and make certain strategies viable that weren't before. They practicely give you completely new abilities.

This made me lol really, really loud.

Maybe you don't realize this, but this is why aegis and horn are considered "worth it", while relic weapons are not.

Relic weapons don't let you do anything new aside from continuing light/dark, which does little to change the strategy of a fight or open new avenues.

You're telling me that being able to go PLD/WAR and straight up tank hits for insignificant damage versus having to go /NIN doesn't allow you approach a fight differently, and open up options you never had before? Or the difference between not having enough refresh for a PLD to main heal himself versus having enough to make that a viable strat (or allowing BLMs to nuke continuously on time sensitive/mega-regen fights versus having to have multiple teams of BLM swap in), etc. doesn't "give you new abilities"?

Basically, what I mean by "new abilities" is that, unlike relic weapons, the horn and shield allow you to utilize new strategies only possible with those items. Relic weapons merely let you kill a little faster. A lot of items only help you do something a little better, but don't change the dynamics of a fight. You just shave a few minutes off the fight, but the mechanics of the encounter is much the same.

Shield and horn, however, have the potential to change the very mechanics of the fight, allowing you to try different things that are impossible otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I understood what you were saying and I agree with you to some extent. But the wording just made me laugh, because of all the relics Aegis and Horn are the only two that don't grant new abilities, everything else does grant a completely new ability.

I suppose that does have a dash of irony in there, somewhere.

[RKenshin]

You may not realize it, but you're kind of being one-sided/biased in your argument.

Relic weapons don't let you do anything new aside from continuing light/dark, which does little to change the strategy of a fight or open new avenues.

Using the exact same approach I could say "Relic Horn doesn't let you do anything knew other than give a higher MP regen."

In reality relic horn really doesn't change the fight much at all. If you lose to Ouryu big time without a Horn, odds are you'll lose big time again even with one. Depending on the PT the BRD is in all it will really do is give them slightly more MP over time... In most cases the MP will go to BLMs, which translates into more damage to an extent (pulling hate = death or log), which is no different from the function most other relic weapons serve.

Or I could also say "Aegis doesn't let you do anything knew other than utilize PLD/WAR without hurting the alliance as much."

But, what's so great about using a PLD/WAR over a PLD/NIN? Even if the PLD/WAR has Aegis? Nothing really I can think of, I'm pretty certain a PLD/NIN will still take less damage (thus generating more hate) and be more tank PT friendly since they rely more on Curing than a PLD/WAR does.

I've also yet to see a PLD/WAR generate as much hate as a PLD/NIN in any major HNM fights, and while experience with those jobs and their performances in certain linkshells vary from place to place, I'm pretty certain this is generally accepted now.

Most of those examples you posted are way too extreme. Odds are that if you wiped to Tiamat at 20%, you'd wipe even if you had a Horn or Aegis. Horn/Aegis doesn't suddenly make your LS invincible (not that you said that), it takes a lot more than that, and you don't need either of them to play at the top of the game.

I'm pretty certain there's really nothing of importance involving HNMs that you can do with Aegis/Horn that you couldn't do before with other jobs/equipment.

[Plow]

People give too much credit to horn. At best it's like letting you sub smn and still have conserve mp, nifty, but not that great.

[aurik]

People give too much credit to horn. At best it's like letting you sub smn and still have conserve mp, nifty, but not that great.

I dunno, an extra 40 mp per minute is a pretty powerful effect on long fights.

[Krandor]

PLD/SMN can main tank? K.

[Khamsin]

You may not realize it, but you're kind of being one-sided/biased in your argument.

Relic weapons don't let you do anything new aside from continuing light/dark, which does little to change the strategy of a fight or open new avenues.

Using the exact same approach I could say "Relic Horn doesn't let you do anything knew other than give a higher MP regen."

In reality relic horn really doesn't change the fight much at all. If you lose to Ouryu big time without a Horn, odds are you'll lose big time again even with one. Depending on the PT the BRD is in all it will really do is give them slightly more MP over time... In most cases the MP will go to BLMs, which translates into more damage to an extent (pulling hate = death or log), which is no different from the function most other relic weapons serve.

Or I could also say "Aegis doesn't let you do anything knew other than utilize PLD/WAR without hurting the alliance as much."

But, what's so great about using a PLD/WAR over a PLD/NIN? Even if the PLD/WAR has Aegis? Nothing really I can think of, I'm pretty certain a PLD/NIN will still take less damage (thus generating more hate) and be more tank PT friendly since they rely more on Curing than a PLD/WAR does.

I've also yet to see a PLD/WAR generate as much hate as a PLD/NIN in any major HNM fights, and while experience with those jobs and their performances in certain linkshells vary from place to place, I'm pretty certain this is generally accepted now.

Seriously though, all your examples are way too extreme. Odds are that if you wiped to Tiamat at 20%, you'd wipe even if you had a Horn or Aegis. Horn/Aegis doesn't suddenly make your LS invincible, it takes a lot more than that, and you don't need either of them to play at the top of the game.

It has nothing to do with making up lack of skill. In fact, only the most skilled will likely take full advantage of horn and shield.

It's more to do with how the horn and shield, by "giving you a little more MP" or "take a little less damage" will be just enough of a boost to open new options and strategies that people without such gear cannot do.

As some people are fond of claiming (especially Flux), the gear in FFXI isn't progressive (you cannot move on to a higher encounter without having X gear first). You can beat anything without the best gear, and the same goes for the shield and horn. An LS that can beat Ouryu with horn and shield could also do it without the horn and shield.

However, my point wasn't that the shield and horn allows you to win things you couldn't before. It was that it allows you to try new strategies and approach a fight from a totally different angle than before. It's like doing a kite and nuke Kirin versus meleeburn. Both ways will win, and just because a meleeburn is the fastest way to take down kirin doesn't mean that weak LSs can simply use that method to make up for lack of skill. Just like weak LSs can't use horn and shield to make up for lack of skill. You have to know how to use it and have other great gear to back it up. You also have to be smart and clever enough to think of ways to exploit those items to the fullest, and to come up with these new ways of approaching an encounter.

So no, horn and shield won't allow an LS that can't beat something to all of a sudden be able to beat it. But it will allow a good LS to rethink their strategies and try something different, and perhaps come up with faster, better, or more reliable methods and allow a different mix of jobs and people in the battle than before.

[RKenshin]

Yeah I agree with that, think I misunderstood you're point in the first post. Mostly I just wanted to get across that it wouldn't turn a bad LS into a good one, kind of get that impression from your post.

[Plow]

People give too much credit to horn. At best it's like letting you sub smn and still have conserve mp, nifty, but not that great.

I dunno, an extra 40 mp per minute is a pretty powerful effect on long fights.

Walahra water, hi ether, etc...

And yeah it's cool for the pld's I just thought of it after I'd already posted, and it's the same thing, no better than just giving em some pots. (and yes I realize you can use pots and horn at the same time lol)

[Quicklet]

I've also yet to see a PLD/WAR generate as much hate as a PLD/NIN in any major HNM fights, and while experience with those jobs and their performances in certain linkshells vary from place to place, I'm pretty certain this is generally accepted now.

Isn't that one of the major reasons to get Aegis though?

[aurik]

People give too much credit to horn. At best it's like letting you sub smn and still have conserve mp, nifty, but not that great.

I dunno, an extra 40 mp per minute is a pretty powerful effect on long fights.

Walahra water, hi ether, etc...

And yeah it's cool for the pld's I just thought of it after I'd already posted, and it's the same thing, no better than just giving em some pots. (and yes I realize you can use pots and horn at the same time lol)

Using ethers takes time. And a lot of inventory if you're talking about 6 people for a 30-60 minute fight, which is where the horn really shines. It's not game breaking, no, and it won't upgrade your zerglings to hydralisks, but it is a significant upgrade.

[Kiro]

People give too much credit to horn. At best it's like letting you sub smn and still have conserve mp, nifty, but not that great.

I dunno, an extra 40 mp per minute is a pretty powerful effect on long fights.

Walahra water, hi ether, etc...

And yeah it's cool for the pld's I just thought of it after I'd already posted, and it's the same thing, no better than just giving em some pots. (and yes I realize you can use pots and horn at the same time lol)

Using ethers takes time. And a lot of inventory if you're talking about 6 people for a 30-60 minute fight, which is where the horn really shines. It's not game breaking, no, and it won't upgrade your zerglings to hydralisks, but it is a significant upgrade.

>_>..

[Plow]

Using ethers takes time. And a lot of inventory if you're talking about 6 people for a 30-60 minute fight, which is where the horn really shines. It's not game breaking, no, and it won't upgrade your zerglings to hydralisks, but it is a significant upgrade.

I dunno I'm a summoner so I'm just not really accustomed to mp "issues" I guess lol. And I never leave home without my ether tanks, just in case and for astral flows hehe.

But honestly at what point does a simple upgrade, which isn't game changing, become better than say... randomly getting an extra 500 dmg out of your tank?

[Raineer]

Aegis addt'l effect > Koenig: not having to use up every possible +shield slot to get the same proc rate (if it true there's a cap that they can both hit)

[Khamsin]

Using ethers takes time. And a lot of inventory if you're talking about 6 people for a 30-60 minute fight, which is where the horn really shines. It's not game breaking, no, and it won't upgrade your zerglings to hydralisks, but it is a significant upgrade.

I dunno I'm a summoner so I'm just not really accustomed to mp "issues" I guess lol. And I never leave home without my ether tanks, just in case and for astral flows hehe.

But honestly at what point does a simple upgrade, which isn't game changing, become better than say... randomly getting an extra 500 dmg out of your tank?

The point at which it reduces your 200 damage hits to 20, and allows you to main heal yourself without running out of MP.

[XaocRamuh]

Using ethers takes time. And a lot of inventory if you're talking about 6 people for a 30-60 minute fight, which is where the horn really shines. It's not game breaking, no, and it won't upgrade your zerglings to hydralisks, but it is a significant upgrade.

6x Carrier, 3x Scout, 2x Corsair, 1x Arbiter