Aegis

[aurik]

Using ethers takes time. And a lot of inventory if you're talking about 6 people for a 30-60 minute fight, which is where the horn really shines. It's not game breaking, no, and it won't upgrade your zerglings to hydralisks, but it is a significant upgrade.

I dunno I'm a summoner so I'm just not really accustomed to mp "issues" I guess lol. And I never leave home without my ether tanks, just in case and for astral flows hehe.

But honestly at what point does a simple upgrade, which isn't game changing, become better than say... randomly getting an extra 500 dmg out of your tank?

Because that "500dmg" is hateless and extremely rare against IT monsters, whereas ballad+2 is reliably an extra 2mp per tic?

Think of it this way, instead of giving your tank pt refresh+2x ballad for 6 mp per tic, you can drop the rdm, put in another useful party member, and give them 2x gjall ballad for 7mp per tic. Or, you can keep the rdm, give them gjall ballad2 + refresh + another song (march?) without having to add another bard.

It really makes your tank party flexible; I think it is way better there than giving the BLMs an extra t4 nuke every 4 minutes.

[Kiro]

Using ethers takes time. And a lot of inventory if you're talking about 6 people for a 30-60 minute fight, which is where the horn really shines. It's not game breaking, no, and it won't upgrade your zerglings to hydralisks, but it is a significant upgrade.

6x Carrier, 3x Scout, 2x Corsair, 1x Arbiter

You require more Vespene gas!

[Plow]

The point at which it reduces your 200 damage hits to 20, and allows you to main heal yourself without running out of MP.

That's why I said people give horn too much credit when he asked about aegis vs the rest hehe

But, honestly if I were going to choose 1 relic for 1 person in my ls, it would probably be a shield. And for a 2nd either a shield on another person or a sword for the person with the shield, depending on the scenario.

Despite the obvious issues with the sword with the lack of extra hate, I still think people underestimate it pretty dramatically.

[XaocRamuh]

You require more Vespene gas!

I do get that a lot I just pick maps with lots of gas points and hope I dontget rushed before I can pull what I need.

[Kiro]

You require more Vespene gas!

I do get that a lot I just pick maps with lots of gas points and hope I dontget rushed before I can pull what I need.

I wanna play some Starcraft now.

[aurik]

The point at which it reduces your 200 damage hits to 20, and allows you to main heal yourself without running out of MP.

That's why I said people give horn too much credit when he asked about aegis vs the rest hehe

But, honestly if I were going to choose 1 relic for 1 person in my ls, it would probably be a shield. And for a 2nd either a shield on another person or a sword for the person with the shield, depending on the scenario.

Despite the obvious issues with the sword with the lack of extra hate, I still think people underestimate it pretty dramatically.

Why? Paladins have awful accuracy against HNM, and the add effect is rare as well. I'll let someone with the weapon actually chime in with real data, but my understanding is that you'd be lucky to see it proc more than a handful of times in a long fight. In addition, it does nothing to help the Pld hold hate -- in fact, enmity+ swords will help much more. The extra damage rating won't help at all when your pdif is 0-0.4, and spirits within is just as powerful with an onion sword.

Over the course of a fight, you'd be much better off with a relic weapon on one of your real DD.

[epigram]

like bst :D lol

[RKenshin]

Thanks for making me want to play SC Aurik.

I've also yet to see a PLD/WAR generate as much hate as a PLD/NIN in any major HNM fights, and while experience with those jobs and their performances in certain linkshells vary from place to place, I'm pretty certain this is generally accepted now.

Isn't that one of the major reasons to get Aegis though?

I've always been under the impression that the primary function of Aegis is mostly just to reduce the damage you take... While that does result in keeping hate better, arguably I think in most situations you would still take less damage utilizing PLD/NIN rather than PLD/WAR IMO.

In addition, PLD/NIN relies more directly on Curing for hate which just helps more overall to save outside MP as well as generating strong hate (provoke hate is so ftl ).

[Plow]

Why? Paladins have awful accuracy against HNM, and the add effect is rare as well. I'll let someone with the weapon actually chime in with real data, but my understanding is that you'd be lucky to see it proc more than a handful of times in a long fight. In addition, it does nothing to help the Pld hold hate -- in fact, enmity+ swords will help much more. The extra damage rating won't help at all when your pdif is 0-0.4, and spirits within is just as powerful with an onion sword.

Over the course of a fight, you'd be much better off with a relic weapon on one of your real DD.

It depends on the proc rate I suppose. From what I understand though, it's not all that uncommon.

Excal swings ever 3.3 seconds with only the haste spell. So with no haste gear, it swings 18-19 times per minute. So it needs just over a 5% proc rate to be near the dmg output of one summoner. Assuming the proc rate was, say, 3% you'd be looking at about half the damage of a summoner coming out of basically nowhere, provided that this is a pld strong enough to keep his/her hp reliably high. And this doesn't acount for things like freakish 2-3 straight procs, etc.

Everyone likes more mana, but it seems to me at this point there's so many ways to get it seems like it's hard to compare it to something like free damage that doesn't cost any mana or affect the hate balance.

[Krandor]

PLD on Asura is fighting Tiamat in DD gear with Excalibur.

He's hitting for 0 more often then not, and he popped KoR for a fat 0 damage.

Excalibur is a piece of shit, as I'm sure anyone in BG can confirm.

You also realize the added effect doesn't generate hate right?

[Plow]

PLD on Asura is fighting Tiamat in DD gear with Excalibur.

He's hitting for 0 more often then not, and he popped KoR for a fat 0 damage.

Excalibur is a piece of shit, as I'm sure anyone in BG can confirm.

You also realize the added effect doesn't generate hate right?

Because his normal hits and ws are totally the point I was talking about.

And of course the hate thing wasn't the first thing I said.

Oh and if he's hitting consistently for 0, he's not wearing dd gear worth speaking of.

[Krandor]

Who gives a shit if it won't help with hate honestly, on HNM PLD is a tank, /end

I think BG stated that in full DD/HP gear on Jormungand Bickwin parsed = to 1 single SMN? Trying to justify a relic sword when you could just have someone level SMN seems pretty bullshit to me.

[Plow]

Who gives a shit if it won't help with hate honestly, on HNM PLD is a tank, /end

I think BG stated that in full DD/HP gear on Jormungand Bickwin parsed = to 1 single SMN? Trying to justify a relic sword when you could just have someone level SMN seems pretty bullshit to me.

k

HAY GUSY SHOULD WE GET A RELIC OR FIGURE OUT HOW TO HACK AN EXTRA PERSON INTO THE ALLIANCE FULL TIME

because one of your tanks happening to do as much dmg as one of your dd's while tanking would suck ass

anyway

[Krandor]

PLD can tank Wyrms in DD/HP gear? wow what have I been missing out on for the last 2 years.

[Plow]

PLD can tank Wyrms in DD/HP gear? wow what have I been missing out on for the last 2 years.

Bikkwin fought jorm in full out dd gear and equaled a smn's dmg but wasn't trying to tank? Wow I guess bg must not understand how jobs work

[Isildur]

PLD/WAR tanking with Aegis can generate more MP usage than PLD/NIN depending on what the rest of your equipment setup is, Ethereal Earring is great for an extra 3-5 MP every 3 seconds you take full damage, with Aegis you might get unlucky and have a 30+ damage block, and maybe you'll get 1 MP back. PLD/WAR can utilize shield block alot more than PLD/NIN can, and since they changed TP gained from shield to +5 every time you block, you'll get 200ish TP for Chivalry every 40 hits you block, with Aegis that wont take very long. Chivalry, being on a 15 minute timer with max merits isnt so good in itself, but with a WHM who times Devotion right you can get about 300MP back instantly every 7 1/2 minutes.

Seeing as how a PLD is pretty much always gonna have a RDM in pt, probably even a BRD, that'll be 7mp/tick all the time too. I'd see more utilization out of being able to Cure IV myself more often, while blocking a shitload with Aegis and taking minimal damage at the same time. PLDs dont need to focus on curing only themselves either, if you Cure IV anyone who pisses off the mob you'll generate about or the same (or more) hate as Provoke like Rukenshin said. What im saying is that PLD/WAR could benefit from being able to have MP on tap most of the time w/ Aegis and probably keep hate like a monster. I'm not sure that Shield Bash does 500+ but a guaranteed 250+ damage on a monster every 5 minutes (4:10 with merits) is enough in itself to compensate from -3 Enmity for Koenig Shield, if the mob is strong against melee attacks this can also prove exceptionally better.

PLD/NIN wouldnt be able to utilize Aegis -as- much as PLD/WAR could, but comparing DEF:40 -25% Magic Damage 250+ Shield Bash, and highest block rate / damage reduction in the game to +5 VIT +5 CHR and +3 Enmity is like comparing David to Goliath. PLD/NINs can get unlucky sometimes and get their shadows ripped off with 12-14 seconds left on a Ni timer and they'll probably be praying they shield block or the mob misses, if this mob so happens to be Tiamat or something that hits ungodly hard at times. In that event, Aegis is by far better than a Koenig Shield even for PLD/NIN because you'll be able to rely on a much better shield to save you. I think im rambling on, nobody is probably going to fucking read this anyways, but i know PLD/NIN could make alot of use out of Aegis over Koenig/Kaiser Shield, you can always put 3/4 enmity elsewhere if you absolutely need it.

[Mysterio]

PLD can tank Wyrms in DD/HP gear? wow what have I been missing out on for the last 2 years.

Bikkwin fought jorm in full out dd gear and equaled a smn's dmg but wasn't trying to tank? Wow I guess bg must not understand how jobs work

Pretty sure thats exactly what Bikkwin did.

He was there for DD only, to test.

[aurik]

PLD can tank Wyrms in DD/HP gear? wow what have I been missing out on for the last 2 years.

Bikkwin fought jorm in full out dd gear and equaled a smn's dmg but wasn't trying to tank? Wow I guess bg must not understand how jobs work

No, from my recollection he was trying to tank but failed miserably because he was in full DD gear to get the most out of the sword. At best he was an additional DD in the alliance, except one that needed refresh and cures and paralynas as opposed to garuda.

[Khamsin]

PLD can tank Wyrms in DD/HP gear? wow what have I been missing out on for the last 2 years.

Bikkwin fought jorm in full out dd gear and equaled a smn's dmg but wasn't trying to tank? Wow I guess bg must not understand how jobs work

HAY GUSY SHOULD WE GET A RELIC OR FIGURE OUT HOW TO HACK AN EXTRA PERSON INTO THE ALLIANCE FULL TIME

because one of your tanks happening to do as much dmg as one of your dd's while tanking would suck ass

If the PLD was in DD/HP gear and not playing the role of tank, you wouldn't need to "hack an extra person into the alliance full time" to replace his damage. You'd just replace him with a SMN, and boot him out of the alliance.

If he is tanking, then he's not going to be doing it in DD/HP gear. In which case, you can easily replace his damage without hacking an extra person into the alliance simply by casting Dia.

[Plow]

If the PLD was in DD/HP gear and not playing the role of tank, you wouldn't need to "hack an extra person into the alliance full time" to replace his damage. You'd just replace him with a SMN, and boot him out of the alliance.

If he is tanking, then he's not going to be doing it in DD/HP gear. In which case, you can easily replace his damage without hacking an extra person into the alliance simply by casting Dia.

The thing is you don't need full dd gear to get the dmg from the add effect, just some extra accuracy. And if they have the accuracy to hit reliably and still be a strong tank, that's a lot of extra damage without adding an extra person.