Stage 5 - Completed Relic Weapons List

[RKenshin]

how does anniihilator par against yoichinoyumi?

The main problem with the relic gun, is that while in the bow/arrow combination, most of the power lies within the bow, in the gun/bullet combination most of the power lies within the ammunition. Until they come out with some kind of permanant recycle relic ammunition the relic gun will always be lackluster.

great, thanks for the info.

Coronach was doing LOL 200-400 dmg RNG/WAR on Tiamat last weekend compared to Mercy Stroke of consistently 500-900. I gave the RNG AGI etude, and THF STR Etude.
(yayyy I am not "just" a ballad whore lol)

Morale of the story, Gun sucks in practical not just in theory.

It was mentioned briefly by another poster, but why on earth are you comparing a gun to a dagger on a mob where ranged attacks have something like a 50% damage penalty (just like magic) and melee damage doesn't? It's almost as bad as comparing Spharai to a Relic Bow in KRT or something. This is assuming you knew about that damage penalty though... But I thought it was common knowledge as there was a huge mob of angry RNGs when CoP Wyrms were first released, but I guess that was too long ago.

stuff

W/e you say dude, Gun is still one of the worse relic there is, which is exactly what I am trying to imply.
People can do so much better with other relics than lolGun.

Well, to be honest, the only relics that are really worth it are shield/horn. One might be able to argue GK, but 2x more MP regeneration will always beat out the little extra damage from GKT. The rest (including dagger) are for floss; there is nothing wrong with that however, but at least people should admit it.

I hate to raise the dead horse back up but this made me think, and now more than ever I have to really disagree with that initial statement.

With many linkshells putting more time/effort into instanced events like Salvage, Einherjar, Dynamis/Limbus/Assaults/etc, and less time into HNM kings/CoP wyrms... There really isn't as much of a need for a decked out Aegis PLD or a relic BRD as there used to be. Not to mention the fact that this trend of SE introducing more instanced events will likely continue.

Aegis PLDs shine on the really hard HNMs, but when it comes to instanced stuff like the events mentioned above... The most effective way to do most of them is having DDs tank, just like for exp PTs. Sure it's nice to have Aegis PLDs in those events but their roll is much smaller and less essential than say if they were tanking Tiamat. And, honestly, in those scenarios I feel I can say with confidence that a decked out relic job capable of dishing out heavy damage would benefit the group more.

Then as far as relic BRDs go, yeah the MP is always always going to be useful... But you could argue the same thing for an increase in damage output. A relic BRD will help you do things you couldn't do as easily before when it comes to HNM fights where shit can hit the fan with single mistakes, but in instanced events it's more of a really nice bonus outside of small man runs. The faster MP regeneration doesn't usually speed up fights (outside of manaburns/etc) as MP for curing is rarely a limiting factor in kill speed for most instanced events (Salvage being a little unique for obvious reasons in that aspect). And, unlike MP, a person's damage output doesn't have limits or cap off. It's always in effect as long as they have the IQ of a shoe lace to do their job. The 2x MP regeneration is only useful if you're using all that MP, and you won't always be doing it because there isn't always someone to cure/buff/debuff/etc (even without relic horn mages are often high MP when things are going smoothly). Then, even for manaburns BLMs tend to have limits on how often they can nuke.

To clarify one thing though, I'm not saying neither of the above relics are bad choices or won't help out the group in any situation... What I'm trying to say is that people should think a little more about how things are changing now, before jumping on the shield/horn bandwagon where nothing is worth upgrading except those two. Because as I said, now more than ever before I don't believe that's true. The fact the most successful salvage teams I know of across all servers tend to have DDs with relics, that they all agree to be a pretty big help in one way or another, helps speak to this point as well.

Of course this all matters mostly on what your LS focuses on I suppose. For my own and what seems to be a lot of other linkshells now though, there is much much more time spent doing instanced events than HNMs. And, in those events the extra damage some relics provide does help out a good deal.

[Max™]

Just in case that wasn't clear, that was a Ruke-pwn.

Unfortunately, I don't see any LJ update, so it was a double pwn.

[Ohemgee]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...erin/vande.jpg

AM I DOING IT RIGHT?

[LD]

It could be argued that the reason Aegis & Horn are seen as more useful when compared to the Weapon Relics is because they are so superior to any alternatives within their respective group, and the weapons are not. The performance upgrade from the shield or horn is (apparently) very obvious, and well worth the money. Relic weapons are certainly superior to most others of their type, but it usually isn't by a large enough margin to justify that sort of expenditure. The Spharai/Destroyers situation is probably the best example of this. Spharai ARE better, but Destroyers are a reasonably close second while being practically free. So it isn't so much that Relic Weapons aren't greater than any other weapon, it's just they aren't the Far & Away Godly weapons they were supposed to have been.

I agree that the current trends make weapon relics seem more practical, but that's more a product of old jobs engaged in a new system. SE is creating more burnable content and physical DDs are seeing more action than the heavy HNM-only era.

[matix]

Coronach was doing LOL 200-400 dmg RNG/WAR on Tiamat last weekend compared to Mercy Stroke of consistently 500-900. I gave the RNG AGI etude, and THF STR Etude.
(yayyy I am not "just" a ballad whore lol)

Morale of the story, Gun sucks in practical not just in theory.

Everything bolded is wrong D:

[Ryko]

Honestly, it has to do with the fact that the best weapon in the game is more common, less expensive, and much stronger than any relic :/ even if it's uncommon and a matter of luck in of itself.

Yeah yeah I know "When doesnt ryko talk about the ridill" but fuck it, it's the truth and of the people on our server who own relics it shouldn't be surprising that a large amount of them own a ridill too.

[LD]

Well, tagging Ridill as more powerful than other weapon only seems really true for WAR, imo, but it is much easier to obtain, since Fafnir does pop once a day (may not be 100%, but at least a few ridills will have dropped in the time you're doing your relic.) Relic Weapons have their high points, but they have a very poor cost (& effort) to benefit ratio.

[RKenshin]

To clarify again, I wasn't speaking in regards to the cost/benefit ratio of any of the relics... Just about the benefits of upgrading xxx relic for your LS verus the benefits of upgrading yyy relic, in regards to any DD relic vs a horn/shield.

[LD]

Yes, but when it comes down to it, that's the only relevant point when discussing it.

If you've already decided you want a relic, the cost/benefit ratio is already irrelevant to you, your purpose is to get an item, nothing else. On the other hand, if your purpose is to improve your game by a substantial amount, you will question whether it's worth your time & money, and if the LS helps fund it, they'll be damn sure to take the most beneficial path.

Simply put, if you just want a relic and not the added performance its supposed to give you, there is no discussion, you've already made up your mind.

[Tekki]

Speaking of relevant discussion, isnt this an old and tired argument? It seems to pop up on 1/20 pages and 1/2 of any relic related threads.

[RKenshin]

^ so true. As I continue... <.<

Yes, but when it comes down to it, that's the only relevant point when discussing it.

If you've already decided you want a relic, the cost/benefit ratio is already irrelevant to you, your purpose is to get an item, nothing else. On the other hand, if your purpose is to improve your game by a substantial amount, you will question whether it's worth your time & money, and if the LS helps fund it, they'll be damn sure to take the most beneficial path.

Simply put, if you just want a relic and not the added performance its supposed to give you, there is no discussion, you've already made up your mind.

Actually I disagree to some extent. The literal benefit in the game isn't really worth the cost for any relic, because in comparing what you can buy with 200m (whether as a person or from an LS fund's point of view) to what any single relic does to one job it's still not worth the actual benefit unless there's really nothing else you could buy (which is sometimes the case as well). A bunch of poorly/average equiped people or jobs going to fully decked out jobs/LS members/Kraken DRKs/etc easily outweighs a single relic for most situations. But of course whether the actual benefit is worth the cost to the person is a different story, but for most people they do feel the benefit is/was worth the cost/effort (I know I do!).

And, I also would argue some DD relics do up your game a substantial amount. I'm sure Mandau THFs or anyone who has regular experiences with them can vouche for how it completely changed the job, just like people probably could for GTK and some others. In getting GTK I went from just a SAM to a DD that tanks regularly on HNMs/instanced areas all while often doing the most damage output against any jobs. I'm not saying that to brag at all either, but just an example of how it completely changed the job for me.

Then, as far as an LS choosing the most beneficial path, more often than not by 'choosing the most beneficial path' it comes down to "who can we trust the most/deserves it the most/worked the hardest for it?" rather than "who can we throw a horn/shield at?"... Seeing as a horn that doesn't show up to events, quits the game, or sells their character doesn't serve much use.

Annnd uh, I'll try to leave it at that so this thread isn't dragged into a long debate again.

[aurik]

Anyone who says Spharai isn't worth it doesn't know the revolution that is counter-tanking.

[Genosync]

Anyone who says Spharai isn't worth it doesn't know the revolution that is counter-tanking.

quoted for complete, absolute truth

[Naygor]

That's retarded. Why the hell would you waste 100+ mil on a spharai so you could counter tank when rdm/nin is the best hate in the game.

[Tekki]

And anyone who doesn't know the massive HNM DoT potential of a HP based, ignores VIT/DEF, additional effect doesn't know about the "Out parse a SMN? Hell Ill outparse your entire SMN PT" revolution.

Seriously, hasn't enough evidence supported a large majority of relics can create fairly extraordinary game play in the hands of those who utilize the relic's potential? The relic Bow, GKT, Scythe, Knife, Sword, hell even the Club come to mind. Almost all of those listed have shown pretty awesome potential, evident through some of our most famous players' journals, SSs, and game play.

Im not talking "Marginal differences compared to what you can get" Im talking about wtfbbq SSs and reports. Yes some still suck completely, e.g. the staff, but my point is that over the past year or so, players have been proving the power of underrated "lolDD" relics and all arguments over relics seem to forget about the evidence that has built up.

Yes I know the argument right now is over "LS funded" relics. Whats it matter anymore? Everything that is killed, or can be killed, on a regular basis isn't extremely difficult... at all... Stopping at only the shield/horn sounds like a declaration of need. I would argue that if you "need" either to run your events, then you need to revisit your strategies to be less dependent on a relic or certain player. Laying the "We need this relic" argument aside, what are you getting the shield/horn for? Your getting it for luxury, nothing more.

Most would argue that the biggest difference the shield/horn make are during HNMs. Last I check HNMs didnt make up but maybe 25% of the gameplay for my LS. The rest is plowing through trash mobs or stuff that cause even our tanks to bust out DD gear and dual wield.

So with luxury and usage on the table you could now argue that a extraordinary melee relic could prove just as useful as a shield/horn. Hell I would be brave the claim that some relic weapons would prove MORE useful then those two. Heres a fact about a lot of LSs, including my own. We rely on active powerhouse DDs for efficiency. We dont use large numbers of them, we simply use the best of what we have. My most active members are melees, and we rely on them just as much as we do support players. Some in my LS could argue this: Out of all our fights, the biggest problem has NEVER been tanking, supporting, holding, recovering. The biggest time sink is the actual damage. Its not so much a problem, but if we were lacking in anything, it would be the inability to knock 15min-1hr off our kill timers.

All this said, I would not argue against creating a LS funded relic weapons over a shield/horn. The bottom line is this. Through strategy and experience my own LS has created a powerhouse tank team and support crew. We generally have 0 problems, ever. So if the LS wants to fund something that will help us kill faster, more power to them. Hell, it would probably be more of a spectacle then "oh wow look at that shield proc..." (Oh wait, we are all /nin why is it procing anyways)

The biggest reason Im finishing my shield is to do extraordinary small man operations with not only my LS, but with some friends. It won't defined my ability, Ive already established my skills through experience. Ive already said this, but if your pushing a shield on a tank to "make life easier" or to create an "easy button" then go back the drawing board. Nothing on this game is hard anymore and with the right crew and strategy you can do better then what any relic shield pld can do. Want proof? Come to this server, I do it on a daily basis... Its hilarious, I can flat out honestly say I have 0 need for that shield, and play x100 better then the current shields on our server, yet Im still getting it... I'm purely getting it out of luxury and to test new things Ive never seen tried on any other pld or team.

BTW Once all my crap sells, Ill have my shield. Ive already flagged and turned in my Relic Scythe. (DRK = Not even unlocked)

[Naygor]

Outparsing a smn is pretty revolutionary.

[Tekki]

Ill take on the whole PT vers me, don't think u caught that, and it wasn't the point.

[Naygor]

I caught that. Somehow I doubt you'd outparse a combined party of (semi-competent) smns.

[Tekki]

Problem with the parser I use (Well mixed blessing I guess since it still proves my point) is that all of the SMNs get counted as one. On all these parses we usually have 2-4 smns. Either way... These still should prove my point. (Oh and the additional effect tends to get "stolen" by melees, so for acc of reporting purposes, you can assume a lot of the "effects" under some of those melees are my own.

Theres a lot more where these come from, but I just wanted to find a few real quick to post

Fafnir
http://www.arista-linkshell.com/tekki/T ... fewfwe.png

One JOL: Its the best comparison for contests. Problem with this parse is the BLMs got their pet kills added.

http://www.arista-linkshell.com/tekki/T ... lParse.png
http://www.arista-linkshell.com/tekki/T ... parse1.png

In non-ego boosting seriousness. You have to consider the available gear for pld, the available support you can stack, and the remember all this with the weapons itself. Its really insane how much dmg can be stacked up so fast on HNMs. Its hate free, and it ignores def/vit. And like I said, those were before I had homam and I was focused. Now its really no contest. The only pieces of gear Im missing that will matter are Homam body and sentinel shield. I haven't had a working parser for awhile but my concerns of late have been running my LS and completing my shield. Once I get everything I need, I would love to revisit those fights and blow the numbers out of the water. Completely focused on dmg and with the right I can tear down a HNM single handely being the only dmg if needed. (Hell look at the melee Acc on those parses, closing that gap alone would prove incredible useful, let alone pushing more haste on the homam I have now)

[Max™]

How often does that kick in?

I know Excalibur is pretty fast, but I'd never really given a lot of thought to a full HP+Haste build Garka with good support.