Stage 5 - Completed Relic Weapons List

[Max™]

I'm reminded of screenshots of 1k Spinning Slashes, myself.

That shit was totally bad ass though.

[Sidanoir]

Moguri, in a sense, is right. The only things that melees have now that they didnt before are some zerg abilities and shinier weapons that don't especially shine until you revolve the world around it, nothing else is so fucking amazing that melees are suddenly tough shit now if they weren't beforehand, and each and every last one of you guys would have praised the ever fucking living shit out of black mages and summoners not even a year ago

I'm suddenly reminded of an argument of how much a thief sucks at fafnir.

The change was a philosophical one.....
Just like people used to dismiss anything but RNG and BLM....it took people a while to warm up to how to effectively gear and use melee..
The benefits of haste gear over just accuracy and attack gear like people used to use.....new food like sushi allowing for haste builds more easily on non A+ merited weapons....
There was lots of small changes in gear builds, how people play etc. that led up to this melee are actually useful revolution.....and the biggest change was people accepting the change itself....

Culture changes slowly....anyone alive more than 10 years should know that

[aurik]

Moguri, in a sense, is right. The only 2 things that melees have now that they didnt before are some zerg abilities, nothing else is so fucking amazing that melees are suddenly tough shit now if they weren't beforehand, and each and every last one of you guys would have praised the ever fucking living shit out of black mages and summoners not even a year ago

I'm suddenly reminded of an argument of how much a thief sucks at fafnir.

Melee when fully meritted and geared has always been strong. The difference a year ago is most people weren't fully meritted and have nowhere near the quality of gear they have now. They didn't let the melee prove themselves.

It's not like Bahamut2 became MORE melee friendly after someone proved it was zergable--people just assumed it was black mages only until shown otherwise. That's not melee getting stronger, that's people getting smarter.

[Vedder]

Moguri, in a sense, is right. The only things that melees have now that they didnt before are some zerg abilities and shinier weapons that don't especially shine until you revolve the world around it. Seeing as how the only relic weapon I've particularly played with or seen in full blown action actually did change the role of the person who was using it, I'm not exactly saying using that as a defense is wrong, but nothing else is so fucking amazing that melees are suddenly tough shit now if they weren't beforehand, and each and every last one of you guys would have praised the ever fucking living shit out of black mages and summoners not even a year ago

I'm suddenly reminded of an argument of how much a thief sucks at fafnir.

How can he be right? He's not even taking a position. I don't see where he stated anything clearly that he's arguing for... just trolling and spouting unrelated nonsense about BLMs/good, melee/bad.

You can't win a logic based argument vs. someone who's acting illogical.... such as moguri.

[Shuemue]

Ultimately there's no right or wrong way of killing a mob though. If something works for LS A, and something else works for LS B, great. Kill that shit, get your loot, have fun.

[NynJa]

This guy never told me how getting 35's to drop is based on skill though

[moguri]

To reiterate my original point:

I'm not saying melee are useless. I'm saying upgrading a melee relic is useless. I might have gotten a bit sidetracked a derailed but that is my original point.

When looking at ghorn/aegis, melee relic weapons pale in comparison. As a LS upgrading relics, I think the damage output for 1 melee relic is far inferior to the support bonuses for BLMs, RDMs, SMNs, WHMs, etc. or the defensive bonuses of Aegis.

Thats all! Good luck and good night.

[Ryko]

I wasn't saying that he was owning you guys in an argument or even that he was steadfastly defending some irrefutable point, I was saying that the sentiments he's throwing in now are exactly the same damn things I've heard countless times from people suddenly saying he's full of shit back when riding the balls of anything with an MP bar for a weapon was the cool thing to do. The only person I'd say is totally exempt from that concept is aurik, and that's because he never randomly threw his MNK to the wayside because it wasn't one of the cool kids anymore. As for the melee bahamut thing: viewtopic.php?p=262801#p262801

I'd say at that point, most of the people who were big on the whole melee thing were approaching being (if not already) fully merited/geared.

Teehee, I must have forgotten how easy it is to talk big at someone when you have a livejournal bible to point at in case you're argued with.

[aurik]

@moguri: So you're basically just standing there shouting "NO U R" rather than put forth a counter-argument when people point out "aegis doesn't help much when your tank isn't a paladin" and "everyone already has full mp for this fight".

[NynJa]

The only person I'd say is totally exempt from that concept is aurik, and that's because he never randomly threw his MNK to the wayside because it wasn't one of the cool kids anymore.

Thats obviously a shot at me...or directed towards me.

Last I checked, even when my BLM took #1 over my THF, I never stopped trying to upgrade my relic weapon, nor got sidetracked from it. I always liked the job. I was gunning for a Mandau since I heard about it. I didnt upgrade it because "ZOMG WAFIK HAS ONE AND ITS PWN", like most of the Mandau's out there now.

[Ryko]

The only person I'd say is totally exempt from that concept is aurik, and that's because he never randomly threw his MNK to the wayside because it wasn't one of the cool kids anymore.

Thats obviously a shot at me...or directed towards me.

Last I checked, even when my BLM took #1 over my THF, I never stopped trying to upgrade my relic weapon, nor got sidetracked from it. I always liked the job. I was gunning for a Mandau since I heard about it. I didnt upgrade it because "ZOMG WAFIK HAS ONE AND ITS PWN", like most of the Mandau's out there now.

Yes and no, you were included in that generalization but it wasn't based on you. As for your relic weapon, it's kind of an afterthought in this case. You might take this personally, but when I think of badass thieves, I think of people like archain who did what they could to make the job not only useful, but a truck of a DD before they even got their hands on the gold dagger (and I really don't respect much of anyone who thought the job was trash before they got theirs, so in that case I'll say your response was relevant). For as much shit as I give him, searain loves his warrior (I blame the self absorption on being italian but that's for another time), as did nny, caj, luminaire, dirian, and the list goes on. Aurik has been throwing the numbers around in an effort to help the monk community since back when he was wearing melee hose and destroyers.

Unfortunately, every single last one of the players I suddenly see now talking about how much "melee rock" otherwise, I see as a complete byproduct of the livejournal movement. The very same people who were too damn lazy to raise their combat merits and lower their timers and spend that extra mill on something useful, the ones who meleed in strength rings, then just threw their hands up in the air saying it's useless and they might as well just go change job and summon garuda. It took an E-diary to wake you up, and I'd bet a large amount of money that the majority who do use it as their crutch of vana'dielian existence don't even fucking fully read the thing anyway. I mean I appreciate people are finally coming around, I'm just wondering what in the living fuck took you so damn long. The numbers, "philosophies" and other stuff were always there, but I guess it was unheard of to have anything but a ridill warrior back the gear up with the proper effort.

[moguri]

Ryko, serious question, since you have a lot of melee jobs leveled (as do i) why did you choose to upgrade aegis over anything else?

Aurik: On easy stuff, spharai is the same as destroyers. On hard stuff, spharai is the same as destroyers.
On easy stuff, the GHorn is wasted. On hard stuff, the GHorn shines.

So if you only do easy stuff (salvage, dynamis-bastok, etc) then yeah, there is no reason to upgrade a relic horn or shield.

[Max™]

OH NO HE DIN'T!

[Shuemue]

Moguri, you're a fucking idiot.

[Ryko]

Ryko, serious question, since you have a lot of melee jobs leveled (as do i) why did you choose to upgrade aegis over anything else?

Well the first reason is that our 2 most attending paladins quit the game (meowolf) or the shell (Therin).

The second is that it provided the greatest use to my LS in comparison to the other things I could have upgraded. The boost it would have given to my samurai would, at best, put it in a role that I did fine on at least 3 other jobs. In all reality, of the 8 I had leveled, my paladin was easily the worst geared in terms of end-game gear. As time passed on the way to upgrading my shield that pretty much drastically changed, the only exception being my bodypiece. I didn't need an extra 2-3% damage on my samurai, I didn't need a lameass greataxe on my warrior when I had a ridill. I've been concentrating on my scythe for dark knight more recently but only to see if all the combat merits and a perdu sickle can make it a stronger weapon for HNMs in comparison to a trusty greatsword. The aegis, on the other hand, raised my survivability to a point my PLD didn't have previously, mostly due to lack of other gear though. I had enmity control down fine, but my timers needed help and it wasn't uncommon for the mages to pretty much just think "hey if meo's alive we're ok" only to let the other guys hit the floor. Sadly that can happen too nowadays but it's much more rare. Even with my gear we have a lot of other tanks that have their shit together and I'm more than happy to sit aside for them. When I do use my PLD though, I know I'm actually offering something I didn't offer previously, and that utility is what stood out when I took tens's suggestion to upgrade it instead of a weapon.

That's just my view though, I'd rather something useful than something shiny. I remember back when we (random people from this board) were all on senoska's vent and I said that the Kbody was worthless only to get people arguing about it because "I wouldnt understand if I weren't a paladin" (I had it at 75 before that conversation though and had likely tanked more on it than the people arguing with me about it even though I didn't like using the job ever).

Edit: Not touching the spharai thing, aurik's gonna pretty much pimpslap you on that one >_>

[Judai]

Unfortunately, every single last one of the players I suddenly see now talking about how much "melee rock" otherwise, I see as a complete byproduct of the livejournal movement. The very same people who were too damn lazy to raise their combat merits and lower their timers and spend that extra mill on something useful, the ones who meleed in strength rings, then just threw their hands up in the air saying it's useless and they might as well just go change job and summon garuda. It took an E-diary to wake you up, and I'd bet a large amount of money that the majority who do use it as their crutch of vana'dielian existence don't even fucking fully read the thing anyway. I mean I appreciate people are finally coming around, I'm just wondering what in the living fuck took you so damn long. The numbers, "philosophies" and other stuff were always there, but I guess it was unheard of to have anything but a ridill warrior back the gear up with the proper effort.

huh? Seeing as I'm one of the people that was argueing and you said every single one of them, I have always thought BLM was over rated. I don't think I've ever sat there and said BLM is the end all be all DD ever. Not to mention my MNK was quickly merited and I've always been a Haste/Acc Monk. Probably aren't even talking about me though or just over stating a generalization about people you don't know.

Sure BLM is great for plenty of things but this dude's whole arguement turned into, BLM owns, Melee sucks which is far from the case.

[Ryko]

Sure BLM is great for plenty of things but this dude's whole arguement turned into, BLM owns, Melee sucks which is far from the case.

Yeah and my point was that it was a majority of this board's mantra for 3 years, pitying the lame melees and hiding behind their stoneskins. To be fair I have no idea if you've even regularly done HNMs judai.

[Tricen]

So.... How bout them relics... Or somethin...

[Lhexh]

While you are right Ryko, I don't think its really fair to speak down to the converts because at least they finally saw the light. Sure, it's somewhat ironic they are bashing someone for having the same stance they probably held in the past, but we are talking about people arguing with someone who seems to be still stuck in the stone ages.

[moguri]

I'd rather something useful than something shiny.

Thank you. That was my only point.