Stage 5 - Completed Relic Weapons List

[jaryk]

I'd rather something useful than something shiny.

Thank you. That was my only point.

Actually you never really made a point, just a series of uninformed and illogical arguments, Ryko actually made a point, don't attempt to associate yourself with someone who knows what they're talking about when you had no clue. On a side not of pushing blm's does anyone else find it ironic that the best body piece obtainable for a blm comes from a series of instances where you do not in fact use blm as a job... but I'm sure Moguri can tell us about how he manaburns salvage too.

[moguri]

To reiterate my original point:

I'm not saying melee are useless. I'm saying upgrading a melee relic is useless. I might have gotten a bit sidetracked a derailed but that is my original point.

When looking at ghorn/aegis, melee relic weapons pale in comparison. As a LS upgrading relics, I think the damage output for 1 melee relic is far inferior to the support bonuses for BLMs, RDMs, SMNs, WHMs, etc. or the defensive bonuses of Aegis.

Thats all! Good luck and good night.

[NynJa]

I'd rather something useful than something shiny.

Thank you. That was my only point.

How many fights will you seriously see an impact from aegis ??
Proto-Ultima, busters
KB, if you're a retard and dont know how to outrun meteor
Tiamat flying, though some people opt to use that time frame to their advantage to lock hate (200 dmg fireball x2 -> cure4 = hi2u hate)
Khimaira, gay magic AoE's, but Khim's hardly a challenge to begin with, nor is it worth it.
Bahamut v2, to eat flares, though people are bypassing that shit completely now and just zerging it.
Cerberus, to lower GoH damage, though this shouldnt be a problem if your stunners are half competant.

So really, is aegis all that ZOMGWTFBBQ ??


All Gjallahorn is good for is more ballads, but if your tanks are constantly getting curebombed to the point that you need 7mp/tick instead of 3mp/tick, then you've got greater problems to deal with. Its not like Gjallahorn is going to help a blm's damage, because if they're mping out constantly, they're going to die.

[Suiram]

On a side not of pushing blm's does anyone else find it ironic that the best body piece obtainable for a blm comes from a series of instances where you do not in fact use blm as a job... but I'm sure Moguri can tell us about how he manaburns salvage too.

Eh, not that I agree with anything moguri is saying, but to say that BLM doesn't have utility in Salvage is fighting ignorance with ignorance. A BLM is as useful there in most situations as anywhere else.

[moguri]

I'd rather something useful than something shiny.

Thank you. That was my only point.

How many fights will you seriously see an impact from aegis ??
Proto-Ultima, busters
KB, if you're a retard and dont know how to outrun meteor
Tiamat flying, though some people opt to use that time frame to their advantage to lock hate (200 dmg fireball x2 -> cure4 = hi2u hate)
Khimaira, gay magic AoE's, but Khim's hardly a challenge to begin with, nor is it worth it.
Bahamut v2, to eat flares, though people are bypassing that shit completely now and just zerging it.
Cerberus, to lower GoH damage, though this shouldnt be a problem if your stunners are half competant.

So really, is aegis all that ZOMGWTFBBQ ??


All Gjallahorn is good for is more ballads, but if your tanks are constantly getting curebombed to the point that you need 7mp/tick instead of 3mp/tick, then you've got greater problems to deal with. Its not like Gjallahorn is going to help a blm's damage, because if they're mping out constantly, they're going to die.

Okay, I'll be the bigger man and admit when I'm wrong. Mandau would probably be a much wiser choice on every mob you listed.

[Shuemue]

Okay, I'll be the bigger man and admit when I'm wrong. Mandau would probably be a much wiser choice on every mob you listed.

Where did he say Mandau would be better? Oh yeah, he didn't.

Damn, you know someone is really disagreeable when I'm sticking up for Nynja of all people.

[Ryko]

How many fights will you seriously see an impact from aegis ??

To be fair, most of the time you get attacked and it's not absorbed by a shadow, physical or otherwise, you will notice it.

Proto-Ultima, busters
Khimaira, gay magic AoE's, but Khim's hardly a challenge to begin with, nor is it worth it.
Bahamut v2, to eat flares, though people are bypassing that shit completely now and just zerging it.

I'd say these three and kirin (which is once again usually bypassed by zerging the shit out of it) are the most blatant. I'd say khim wasn't worth it to begin with, but people are still camping hauteclaires so I'm probably alone in that.

Tiamat flying, though some people opt to use that time frame to their advantage to lock hate (200 dmg fireball x2 -> cure4 = hi2u hate)

Just take off the resist gear and take the shot with only the shield on, then switch your resist gear back on. It's honestly easy enough to lock hate with just flash and ninjutsu on tiamat, and I'm probably in one of the few shells that don't rely on trick attacks or bloodpacts to play it safe.

Cerberus, to lower GoH damage, though this shouldnt be a problem if your stunners are half competant.

Agreed

So really, is aegis all that ZOMGWTFBBQ ??

Absolutely, if for nothing else increasing the survivability of a tank that is holding a mob as the only tank. Being able to hold a HNM for 10-15 minutes with just a bard or a white mage is big in a game where everyone's philosophy is to hold and scream for help on every worldspawn.

[Cephius]

I'd rather something useful than something shiny.

Thank you. That was my only point.

How many fights will you seriously see an impact from aegis ??
Proto-Ultima, busters
KB, if you're a retard and dont know how to outrun meteor
Tiamat flying, though some people opt to use that time frame to their advantage to lock hate (200 dmg fireball x2 -> cure4 = hi2u hate)
Khimaira, gay magic AoE's, but Khim's hardly a challenge to begin with, nor is it worth it.
Bahamut v2, to eat flares, though people are bypassing that shit completely now and just zerging it.
Cerberus, to lower GoH damage, though this shouldnt be a problem if your stunners are half competant.

So really, is aegis all that ZOMGWTFBBQ ??


All Gjallahorn is good for is more ballads, but if your tanks are constantly getting curebombed to the point that you need 7mp/tick instead of 3mp/tick, then you've got greater problems to deal with. Its not like Gjallahorn is going to help a blm's damage, because if they're mping out constantly, they're going to die.

You pretty much ignore the major increase in shield blocks that Aegis gives, making it all the more powerful because 80% of the time (or whatever it is) you won't get your shadow casts interrupted. However...

All this bickering about Aegis vs Horn vs All other Relics not only deserves an addition to the ToAU vs Cop vs NIN vs War vs MNK thread, but is pointless. Every single god damn item in this game are marginal increases that are not NEEDED to kill ANYTHING. You don't need ridills or adaman bodies or black belts or anything past AF1 to kill any mob in the game as long as you have enough competent players. Who cares which relic is better when they all don't help you accomplish anything you couldn't do before? 18 people in Af1 who know what they're doing can do doubt kill fafnir or Tiamat or whatever else just as efficiently as people who use relics and pimped out characters to do it.

[moguri]

Okay, I'll be the bigger man and admit when I'm wrong. Mandau would probably be a much wiser choice on every mob you listed.

Where did he say Mandau would be better? Oh yeah, he didn't.

Damn, you know someone is really disagreeable when I'm sticking up for Nynja of all people.

If MP (Horn) nor damage mitigation (Shield) are needed, you need more damage, hence mandau. My logic is impeccable.

[BerenTebogo]

Fenrir - Kouking - Bravura

Completed this morning

[Akanei]

Tiamat flying, though some people opt to use that time frame to their advantage to lock hate (200 dmg fireball x2 -> cure4 = hi2u hate)

Just take off the resist gear and take the shot with only the shield on, then switch your resist gear back on. It's honestly easy enough to lock hate with just flash and ninjutsu on tiamat, and I'm probably in one of the few shells that don't rely on trick attacks or bloodpacts to play it safe.

^-^

All Gjallahorn is good for is more ballads, but if your tanks are constantly getting curebombed to the point that you need 7mp/tick instead of 3mp/tick, then you've got greater problems to deal with.

Think more outside the box. The additional ballads also support PLDs just as much as a WHM as a utility tool for them to cure more, thus keep hate locked. While I do agree on the limited utility of a relic horn, that one stands out as the only place where it cannot be downplayed (especially in a melee heavy shell like mine/ryko's, people ARE gonna get AoE'd).

[NynJa]

You pretty much ignore the major increase in shield blocks that Aegis gives, making it all the more powerful because 80% of the time (or whatever it is) you won't get your shadow casts interrupted. However...

Learn to cotank and learn how to cast shadows.

with a second tank, you should rarely be getting hit to begin with. The only time you do get hit, your partner should be able to take hate off you at that point, either through curing lost damage, or from both of you being similarly high on hate that the damage you took knocked your hate down enough for your partner to take #1.

[Ryko]

Learn to cotank and learn how to cast shadows.

Wing, Dreadstorm (after the terror effect wears), (lol)Trembling, elegy dropping + an unlucky double attack, or like I said, stall situation. A paladin being able to shield will come up during the duration of a fight, granted that the better everyone is at playing off eachother the less common it becomes.

[Belmoth]

Aegis is pretty nice for JoL.

[Cephius]

You pretty much ignore the major increase in shield blocks that Aegis gives, making it all the more powerful because 80% of the time (or whatever it is) you won't get your shadow casts interrupted. However...

Learn to cotank and learn how to cast shadows.

with a second tank, you should rarely be getting hit to begin with. The only time you do get hit, your partner should be able to take hate off you at that point, either through curing lost damage, or from both of you being similarly high on hate that the damage you took knocked your hate down enough for your partner to take #1.

Right, because every time a tank gets hit it's because a lack of skill, and they should uninstall. I guess if a LS only has one tank for an event, they should just go home!

Nicca please.

[aurik]

The aegis is a fine relic and its usefulness is immediately apparent, but that doesn't mean that every other relic is "just" a shiny. They each have their domain where they excel. As I said before, how does Aegis help you in the slightest if you don't use paladins to tank stuff?

Aurik: On easy stuff, spharai is the same as destroyers. On hard stuff, spharai is the same as destroyers.

And this is where you're wrong. Destroyers are "the same" as Spharai in only the case where monk never has hate. If you know any good monks, you know that this is virtually never the case. On virtually anything that can be effectively melee'd, even a Walmart monk will take some hate, and a well-geared monk you would expect, given a relic, will be holding hate like a ridill war.

The difference, though, between a ridill war and a monk is that monk and ninja share almost all the gear they can wear. While monk can't wear dusk, they more than make up for it with a near-broken item of their own: black belt. Furthermore, with no special other gear and good accuracy, monk base counter with just spharai and merits is somewhere around 25-30%. Further, on monsters that don't have oneshot potential, you can use counterstance and easily push your counter rate above 60%--a 60% chance of totally nullifying physical melee attacks, don't you wish Shadow Mantle was that potent?

See where I'm going with this yet?

[moguri]

The aegis is a fine relic and its usefulness is immediately apparent, but that doesn't mean that every other relic is "just" a shiny. They each have their domain where they excel. As I said before, how does Aegis help you in the slightest if you don't use paladins to tank stuff?

Aurik: On easy stuff, spharai is the same as destroyers. On hard stuff, spharai is the same as destroyers.

And this is where you're wrong. Destroyers are "the same" as Spharai in only the case where monk never has hate. If you know any good monks, you know that this is virtually never the case. On virtually anything that can be effectively melee'd, even a Walmart monk will take some hate, and a well-geared monk you would expect, given a relic, will be holding hate like a ridill war.

The difference, though, between a ridill war and a monk is that monk and ninja share almost all the gear they can wear. While monk can't wear dusk, they more than make up for it with a near-broken item of their own: black belt. Furthermore, with no special other gear and good accuracy, monk base counter with just spharai and merits is somewhere around 25-30%. Further, on monsters that don't have oneshot potential, you can use counterstance and easily push your counter rate above 60%--a 60% chance of totally nullifying physical melee attacks, don't you wish Shadow Mantle was that potent?

See where I'm going with this yet?

Yeah, we agree then. On easy stuff (where mnk is tanking) then yeah there is no need to upgrade shield/horn.

However, on hard stuff what you're arguing is that 10% counter rate is > 75% shield block rate/-25% magic damage taken, or 2.33x more mp regeneration. I'd take the latter even if its not always useful.

[Shuemue]

what you're arguing is that 10% counter rate is > 75% shield block rate/-25% magic damage taken, or 2.33x more mp regeneration. I'd take the latter even if its not always useful.

Again, where did he say it's better? He's just pointing out that other relics have large benefits too.

[BerenTebogo]

The aegis is a fine relic and its usefulness is immediately apparent, but that doesn't mean that every other relic is "just" a shiny. They each have their domain where they excel. As I said before, how does Aegis help you in the slightest if you don't use paladins to tank stuff?

Aurik: On easy stuff, spharai is the same as destroyers. On hard stuff, spharai is the same as destroyers.

And this is where you're wrong. Destroyers are "the same" as Spharai in only the case where monk never has hate. If you know any good monks, you know that this is virtually never the case. On virtually anything that can be effectively melee'd, even a Walmart monk will take some hate, and a well-geared monk you would expect, given a relic, will be holding hate like a ridill war.

The difference, though, between a ridill war and a monk is that monk and ninja share almost all the gear they can wear. While monk can't wear dusk, they more than make up for it with a near-broken item of their own: black belt. Furthermore, with no special other gear and good accuracy, monk base counter with just spharai and merits is somewhere around 25-30%. Further, on monsters that don't have oneshot potential, you can use counterstance and easily push your counter rate above 60%--a 60% chance of totally nullifying physical melee attacks, don't you wish Shadow Mantle was that potent?

See where I'm going with this yet?

Yeah, we agree then. On easy stuff (where mnk is tanking) then yeah there is no need to upgrade shield/horn.

However, on hard stuff what you're arguing is that 10% counter rate is > 75% shield block rate/-25% magic damage taken, or 2.33x more mp regeneration. I'd take the latter even if its not always useful.

No need to upgrade shield / horn based on having a MNK tank NQ Behemoth?

Did I get wooshed? My head hurts.

[aurik]

Yeah, we agree then. On easy stuff (where mnk is tanking) then yeah there is no need to upgrade shield/horn.

However, on hard stuff what you're arguing is that 10% counter rate is > 75% shield block rate/-25% magic damage taken, or 2.33x more mp regeneration. I'd take the latter even if its not always useful.

Counter rate has accelerating returns. Going from 60% (moderate counterstance build without Spharai) to 70% (moderate counterstance build with Spharai) is a 25% increase in counters...and a 25% decrease rate in spell interruption. Yes if all your linkshell is interested in is afking in attohwacsm for days on end, Spharai is going to help LS a lot less than a horn or shield.

You're living in the past, though. DL is zerged. Bahamut is zerged. Salvage is melee-friendly. Dynamis is melee-friendly. Limbus is melee-friendly. Meritting is melee-friendly. These activities, which comprise probably about 95% of endgame now, are all domains where Spharai and other melee relics excel.